spreading the word

[Guest]

Last thursday on R5 breakfast Rachel Burdon described `Sgt Pepper` as one of the most important cultural creations `in the history of mankind.`



Even though it is a current affairs station R 5 is a cultural backwater and one has come to expect hyperbole especially in respect of sport and `yoof ` culture. However it has wide appeal and it dosen`t help when even R 3 presenters are on occasion only too eager to advertise their pop music credentials, cozying up to the transient popular culture like a poor man trying to gather crumbs from a rich mans table.



It is a particularly late 20 th century phenomenon to describe musically commonplace creations in the type of language employed by Ms Burdon much the detriment of our cultural perceptions and standards. Nowadays people clearly without much knowledge of music as a discipline ( I admit not to have very much myself but I make an effort) are not embarrassed by making sweeping grandiose claims for it ( ergo Ms Burdon) Even the meanest jangly noisome invention is casually described as `great` I wonder if Ms Burdon has ever bothered to listen to a Beethoven symphony or Bach partita. If so she may have moderated her claims a bit



I suppose It originated with the DJ and Anthony Burgess was right in describing them as `electronic lice` ; Would similar claims have been made for an equivalent popular song or musical in of any other era?



|In 2012 one can accept the pop culture as significant development in our cultural history but for the sake of our general well being we must strip pop music of all its trappings and its insidious overarching influence; try and see its component parts (viz a 3 minute pop song) strictly as a musical creation . I`m probably preaching to the converted but if great music was not so marginalised on mainstream media (it probably suits the programme planners to describe it as `elitist`) it may reach into public perceptions more readily (as it used to do) clearly to the betterment of society generally.

Problem is how do we make the movers and shakers of the media understand this? I think it was Walter Legge who said something like `I don`t give the public want they want , I give them what they need`

Any ideas?

Laz

[Stillhomewardbound]

I fear this situation is passed the point of remedy. The writing on the wall became apparent when the likes of The Guardian, The Times and The Telegraph began focussing on pop music as a route to a younger demographic. Now, however, it seems to so dominate what were once called the the Arts pages, pretty much to the marginalisation of the rest of the arts scene. So, a new album by some band is aniticipated with the reverence that might have greeted a new Pinter play.

As it happens, last night I was looking at the Arts page of a 1971 Guardian and I noticed the breadth of its coverage. Pop music was nowhere to be seen. Perhaps then it was the marginalised victim, or as I feel is more the case, there was so much more to talk about.

Now, pop is the top commercial and cultural dog and a leading question for any Prime Minister (or I'm sure shortly, the Archbishop of Canterbury) now is what albums have they got on their iPod. The same for an incoming Culture Minister who is unlikely to have to field questions as to his favourite opera, or how he rates the Impressionists.

Certainly, this trend seems to be part of common fear of branches of the Arts which might require a little application, a bit more thought and engagement, a bit of thinking about.

Is it at surprise that Britian's biggest artistic activity these days, in terms of a person going to see something, is the galleries. Its essentially a passive pasttime, an afternoon walk with good views, dependent on a minimum of interaction.

Indeed, it seems that that is the state of the art.

[kernelbogey]

Welcome, Laz!

It was of course stupid hyperbole. But there is a problem I think - or anyway a debate to be had.

A few years ago I learned that the Good Food Guide awards stars (or whatever) to eateries based on their performance within their class. That is, a fish and chip shop might be awarded five stars, because it is an excellent chippie, whereas a Michelin starred restaurant down the road might get only four, three stars etc.

Sgt Pepper in my view is one of the greatest pop/rock albums ever made. So the context is about sixty years' worth of pop/rock albums. I don't know how it is possible to rate it against, say, Beethoven's Fifth symphony, or Monteverdi's Vespers. They are not of the same kind.

I doubt I've responded fully to your points, but, with reference to familiarity with classical [Heritage?] music - as a friend of mine is fond of saying - 'If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them'.

[french frank]

A few years ago I learned that the Good Food Guide awards stars (or whatever) to eateries based on their performance within their class. That is, a fish and chip shop might be awarded five stars, because it is an excellent chippie

And the problem is when people in a position to make these pronouncements only know the fish and chip shops. And they're speaking to a public which only knows fish and chip shops.

[ardcarp]

And the problem is when people in a position to make these pronouncements only know the fish and chip shops. And they're speaking to a public which only knows fish and chip shops.

..and unless schools bring back quails' eggs (not to mention ptarmigans in aspic) that's all they'll ever know.

[laz]

surely that`s the point `greatest rock and pop`album but what does mean in terms of music? With respect I think you may be indulging in a bit of hyperbole yourself. It`s all music viz notes on a stave ( or perhaps not in terms of pop music). However one is infinitely more sophisticated than the other. You may respond by pointing out some `classical` music is also `simple` but usually a composer has demonstrated the ability to compose much more involved pieces as well

However I guess a chippie would not be compared to La Gavroche which as an analogy is as good as i can come up with

[Serial_Apologist]

surely that`s the point `greatest rock and pop`album but what does mean in terms of music? With respect I think you may be indulging in a bit of hyperbole yourself. It`s all music viz notes on a stave ( or perhaps not in terms of pop music). However one is infinitely more sophisticated than the other. You may respond by pointing out some `classical` music is also `simple` but usually a composer has demonstrated the ability to compose much more involved pieces as well

However I guess a chippie would not be compared to La Gavroche which as an analogy is as good as i can come up with

Laz, I would agree with you, had you selected practically any pop or rock track or album as your gauge of Radio 3's relative treatments of different musics, other than Sergeant Pepper.

To place the music of that album, whether or not it is to your or my taste, in some "simple music" bracket reminds me of Schoenberg's retort to his American pupils complaining of being expected to analyse music "as simple as Mozart".

[cloughie]

Last thursday on R5 breakfast Rachel Burdon described `Sgt Pepper` as one of the most important cultural creations `in the history of mankind.`

Any ideas?

Laz

Its good to know that younger generation appreciate good music - Sgt Pepper had been around 8 years before she was born - actually I have always preferred Rubber Soul and Revolver bt Sgt Pepper is very good. None would have been as good without George Martin, in many ways the Beatles own Walter Legge!

PS I'd rather listen to Eric than Rachel

[kernelbogey]

..and unless schools bring back quails' eggs (not to mention ptarmigans in aspic) that's all they'll ever know.

Not to mention stag's liver.

[Resurrection Man]

Did she give any reasons for her opinion of Sgt Pepper? I would have said Dark Side of the Moon easily outshone Sgt Pepper ! Or maybe Physical Graffiti. Bridge Over Troubled Water, perhaps.

[Resurrection Man]

And the problem is when people in a position to make these pronouncements only know the fish and chip shops. And they're speaking to a public which only knows fish and chip shops.

Ne'er a truer word said. The very same people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[laz]

Laz, I would agree with you, had you selected practically any pop or rock track or album as your gauge of Radio 3's relative treatments of different musics, other than Sergeant Pepper.

To place the music of that album, whether or not it is to your or my taste, in some "simple music" bracket reminds me of Schoenberg's retort to his American pupils complaining of being expected to analyse music "as simple as Mozart".

i think it is pretty simple as pure music. Mozart wrote the final movement of the Jupiter , 5 different themes culminating in a complex fugue and ending at precisely the right time .These are pure musical considerations that would never have entered Lennon or Macartneys conciousness

[decantor]

And the problem is when people in a position to make these pronouncements only know the fish and chip shops. And they're speaking to a public which only knows fish and chip shops.

Perhaps I might be allowed to strike a blow in revenge for the Quat'Saisons: I had to google "Sgt Pepper" to discover the significance of the OP. It seems I was in my mid-twenties when it was released, but I've still not (knowingly) heard it. I've made a deliberate attempt, since the days I was in short trousers, to avoid all things pop/rock, and am quite pleased to learn just how successful I've been. No doubt some wit will suggest a suitable cap for me to wear!

However, I find - much to my surprise - that I know two of the tunes. We used 'Mr. Kite' in some spoof children's drama I was once involved with in the late 70s, and a decade earlier a friend had asked me to knock out a piano version of 'When I'm sixty-four'. I suppose I was aware at the time that both were Beatles' offerings, though I doubt they were typical. I accept that I'm disqualified from commenting further, but I'm wholly in sympathy with Laz's opening lamentation.

[teamsaint]

I have spent a lot of time, as some others on this board have, listening to to pop/rock with a critical and enthusiastic ear.
The recent "Classical Brits" discussions, and, amongst other things , Paul Morley's thoughts are very telling.
It seems to me that across the musical spectrum, there is, and has been for a long time, a real drive on the part of the mainstream media to sideline music, art or whatever that tries to appeal to something more than a basic, lowest common denominator commercialism.
Radio 1 , which was for 30 years the only real outlet for British pop music, consistently consigned music which contained any kind of challenge to the commercial mainstream, to late night slots.

The Sgt Pepper issue is interesting. I am not expert in mid 60's pop, but its clear that there were a number of well known acts producing innovative , thoughtful and also commercially successful music..the Stones, Beach Boys, Beefheart and no doubt others (Marvin Gaye?)were producing music that many well versed critics have compared favourably with Sgt pepper.
Sgt Pepper is a fine record. It has stood the test of time, and its substance and its packaging were at the forefront of what was going on. But it is maybe typical of mainstream media like 5 live to overdo its importance for an easy feature or headline, while ignoring other equally important work.
Personally, I just listen, try and find a bit of context, and enjoy.

Edit: Lazy , sloppy radio ... I have no time for that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

surely that`s the point `greatest rock and pop`album but what does mean in terms of music?

But that is not the criterion Ms Burdon was using if your OP quotes her accurately, laz. Regardless of its many musical merits (and, like cloughie, I prefer Revolver and Rubber Soul) Pepper's cultural status is remarkable. No other cultural artefact "spoke" to so many people so quickly - nor, before mass media, could any. The album marks a change in the way people approach and disseminate "Culture", and the ways in which that Culture reflects their values . In this way, Ms Burdon (whether or not she meant it so) was quite correct.