Bravery beyond imagining...

[Guest]

Honour where honour is long overdue. RIP and thanks, though that is not a big enough word, for all the sacrifices that you and your many brave friends made for us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20241322

[Anna]

Yes, she was very brave, she is a direct descendant of Tipu Sultan, the renowned Tiger of Mysore who refused to submit to British rule and who was killed in battle in 1799. Although she carried a passport of an imperial subject, she had no innate loyalty to Britain. But she did have a strong aversion to fascism.

Of course, what is also notable is that is the first statue in Britain of an Asian Muslim woman.

[Mr Pee]

Of course, what is also notable is that is the first statue in Britain of an Asian Muslim woman.

Why is that notable?

[Anna]

Why is that notable?

Because: She was one of only three women in the SOE to be awarded the George Cross. The other two – Violette Szabo and Odette Hallowes – have had far more recognition, including films about their lives. It has evidently been a long campaign to get her honoured in such a way, because she was a Muslim, involving House of Commons, etc., so it's notable that at last - she has been. That's all.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

An astonishingly courageous human being whose dedication and behaviour I find awe-inspiring.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, she was very brave, she is a direct descendant of Tipu Sultan, the renowned Tiger of Mysore who refused to submit to British rule and who was killed in battle in 1799...

Ah yes, we often forget that the first example of commercial globalisation was the East India Company. That's what we really mean by Tipu Sultan's resisting 'the British'. Just imagine if Starbucks or Macdonalds had their own private armies!

[Simon]

They hardly need them. People want what they sell. That apart, there were healthy trade relations between the British and many in India for many years - it wasn't all bad.

But I think it perhaps inappropriate to try to score political points on this thread, if you don't mind. I began it out of a combination of respect and incredulity that it had taken so long, and respect is what I hope we can all show.

Could any of us have resisted the Gestapo for so long? Would any of us have deliberately refused to escape, to stay and help our friends?

Questions I'm glad I have never been faced with.

[Pabmusic]

They hardly need them. People want what they sell. That apart, there were healthy trade relations between the British and many in India for many years - it wasn't all bad.

But I think it perhaps inappropriate to try to score political points on this thread, if you don't mind. I began it out of a combination of respect and incredulity that it had taken so long, and respect is what I hope we can all show.

Could any of us have resisted the Gestapo for so long? Would any of us have deliberately refused to escape, to stay and help our friends?

Questions I'm glad I have never been faced with.

Oh dear. I'm not aware that I was 'scoring political points' - what 'political points? - as much as throwing in a true fact that had at a least a tangental relevance to a previous post.

Nothing I said was intended to detract from the 'meat' of the thread, which is the well deserved public recognition of Noor Inayat Khan.

[Roslynmuse]

There was a repeat of an interview about this on Woman's Hour on Tuesday morning:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01npjx9/Womans_Hour_Alexandra_Shulman_Amy_Childs_women_and_gaming/

[Pabmusic]

Very tangential. And what's true about imagining MacDos with a private army?...

I won't let that pass, I'm afraid.

I picked up on Anna's point (post 2) that Tipu Sultan - Noor Inayat Khan's ancestor - died in 1799, fighting 'the British' at Seringapatam. I commented (in a reasonably light way) that it wasn't actually a 'British' army in the usual sense, but was the private army of the British East India Company (mainly Indians, actually). It was emphatically not controlled by the British government. It was as if Macdonalds or Starbucks today had their own private armies. And, yes, I did intend to imply that this was a remarkable state of affairs.

My post, though, was not of great importance - more of an interesting aside, really - but it has now been elevated far beyond its worth. And none of that has been my doing. It's a great shame.

[Simon]

I won't let that pass, I'm afraid.

I picked up on Anna's point (post 2) that Tipu Sultan - Noor Inayat Khan's ancestor - died in 1799, fighting 'the British' at Seringapatam. I commented (in a reasonably light way) that it wasn't actually a 'British' army in the usual sense, but was the private army of the British East India Company (mainly Indians, actually). It was emphatically not controlled by the British government. It was as if Macdonalds or Starbucks today had their own private armies. And, yes, I did intend to imply that this was a remarkable state of affairs.

My post, though, was not of great importance - more of an interesting aside, really - but it has now been elevated far beyond its worth. And none of that has been my doing. It's a great shame.

OK Pab. Now you've explained it, I see what you are driving at and if that's the spirit in which you posted then fair enough. I got the sense that it was an anti-Empire, anti-US-multinational corporation jibe, as we see soo ofren, and which I can't let pass, and if that was genuinely and honestly the wrong sense, then I apologise for my misunderstanding. But I did only very gently protest! - I wanted to keep the thread on track and allow as many as possible the chance to read about this remarkable lady. I doubt that you need the "help" to support you and I wish he had kept his nose out. But any chance for a jibe at me and "pat" he comes... That is what has really derailed things.

[ahinton]

OK Pab. Now you've explained it, I see what you are driving at and if that's the spirit in which you posted then fair enough. I got the sense that it was an anti-Empire, anti-US-multinational corporation jibe, as we see soo ofren, and which I can't let pass, and if that was genuinely and honestly the wrong sense, then I apologise for my misunderstanding. But I did only very gently protest! - I wanted to keep the thread on track and allow as many as possible the chance to read about this remarkable lady. I doubt that you need the "help" to support you and I wish he had kept his nose out. But any chance for a jibe at me and "pat" he comes... That is what has really derailed things.

Well, your apology is appreciated, I'm sure but, while we're at it, if shorn of the "jibe" element, what's so wrong in principle about an "anti-Empire, anti-US-multinational" stance to the extent that unwelcome attempts at empire-building still continue despite the lessons that ought long since to have been learned following the slow lingering death of the British one and that US multinationals are for the most part aiming to seize as much monopolistic control as possible in régimes over which US has no legitimate governance rights?

To return to the thread topic, I am relieved to hear that you wish to encourage the focus of attention on that rather than, as Caliban rightly comments, allow "a thread about something inspiring" to "spiral downwards" in the way that certain posts on this one have managed to do...


[Ed: Yes - thank you: let's stay on topic, please. Diversions have been deleted. ff]

[Resurrection Man]

Well, your apology is appreciated, I'm sure but, while we're at it, if shorn of the "jibe" element, what's so wrong in principle about an "anti-Empire, anti-US-multinational" stance to the extent that unwelcome attempts at empire-building still continue despite the lessons that ought long since to have been learned following the slow lingering death of the British one and that US multinationals are for the most part aiming to seize as much monopolistic control as possible in régimes over which US has no legitimate governance rights?

To return to the thread topic, I am relieved to hear that you wish to encourage the focus of attention on that rather than, as Caliban rightly comments, allow "a thread about something inspiring" to "spiral downwards" in the way that certain posts on this one have managed to do...


[Ed: Yes - thank you: let's stay on topic, please. Diversions have been deleted. ff]

That is a very fair point you make, ah. However, I think that Simon's view (and one with which I concur) is that there is a time and a place to debate this - this thread not being one of them.

[ahinton]

That is a very fair point you make, ah. However, I think that Simon's view (and one with which I concur) is that there is a time and a place to debate this - this thread not being one of them.

That's fair comment as far as it goes but, if Simon wants to resort to it for the purposes of illustrating a point (even though that point is supposedly about something else), then perhaps he should initiate a new thread about it.