More fun in Europe...

[MrGongGong]

Simon has such a rich & varied experience of so many things, & so many friends, that I sometimes think he must be a committee.

I often wonder how people with so much knowledge manage ?

[french frank]

Misunderstood? I hardly think anyone would believe that all the payments are fraudulent: even I accept that the EU has to get some of its deals right, if only by accident...

That really does show your true colours!

The quote explains, very clearly, where the 'misunderstanding' comes. I agree that it's not really a 'misunderstanding' when £89bn is quoted in such a way that those who don't know better think that £89bn has been 'lost', 'wasted' or fraudulently misused. It does put it into perspective when you think that even with that huge budget, the percentage error is smaller than the UK's 'annual accounts'. Yes, £5bn spead over the whole of the EU isn't a huge amount. It isn't as if it's all charged up to the UK.

And the reason I'm so sure about this is because I've actually come across some of them in real life!

Load of scoundrels down at your local, eh?

'Nother explanation for those a bit slow-witted and who are easily fooled by the anti-Europe brigade..

[Flosshilde]

I've actually come across some of them in real life!

& Simon's 'real life' is unimaginable.

[MrGongGong]

& Simon's 'real life' is unimaginable.

I guess you are vaguely familiar with the work of Hieronymus Bosch ?

[Simon]

I see the kindergarten crowd has been let onto this thread again. I thought you lot had been warned about these silly, trolling posts. If you want to address the issues, fine: if you aren't able to do so, why not go and make a cup of tea or something useful, eh?

:::::::::::::::::::

5bn may not be a vast %age of the budget, ff. But it's a great deal of money and I'm surprised you are so blase about it.* It continues, year on year, and nobody seems to tackle it. I expect they're more interested in How much good could have been done with that money, spread among the nation states, over the past 18 years?

*Actually, maybe I'm not. Talking about true colours - which I am very happy to agree with you about as regards myself! - can the EU ever do wrong, in your eyes?

[David-G]

The fact is that the auditors have refused to sign off the accounts. And I too regard 5 bn as a lot of money.

Am I now to be criticised in like manner?

[teamsaint]

What I really don't understand is why when it comes to national politics we, the voters have a general tendency to be against centralisation, but when it comes to europe, all our anti centralisation sentiment seems to disappear.
I know that this is a generalisation, but that is how it feels. We know that our own politicians all tend to draw power to the centre, even the supposedly anti big government tories. And we know that European politicians, and their "friends" at the ECB have centralised power, especially financial power over the long and the short term.
I just wonder why we seem to take a more benign view when its over the channel, and if anything less accountable than national politics.?

[scottycelt]

Am I correct in thinking that the 89 billions (whether puny Euros or mighty Pounds) is now 5 billions, and much of that could be simply be due to human error?

Less than 4% of any budget indicating 'irregularities' does not appear to me to be a particularly shocking statistic. On the contrary I find it impressive that a whopping 96% is apparently free of any such controversy and as others have hinted the obvious transparency in the exercise is wholly commendable. The usual 'Little Englander' misinformation should be totally ignored and not taken seriously by those in search of the facts. This thread is surely testament to that simple truth!

I see Cameron now wants a trade deal between the EU and the USA to 'boost world growth'. Well he and his Party had better quickly decide whether they are in or out of the EU or else both 'Angela' and 'Barack' will be deciding such things between themselves.

Why in pity's sake should either of them bother to listen to a 'semi-detached' Prime Minister and country which may well eventually decide to become completely detached from our European friends and neighbours and thus be without any power and influence whatsoever?

[teamsaint]

in or out of the EU, friends with Merkel or Obama or not, 60m people in one of the worlds richest countries is STILL too big a market for our current trading partners to ignore. People trade because they get good deals.
That's not an argument for making stupid decisions based on small minded nationalist sentiment...but it is worth bearing in mind.

Plus we got nukes !!

[David-G]

I see Cameron now wants a trade deal between the EU and the USA to 'boost world growth'. Well he and his Party had better quickly decide whether they are in or out of the EU or else both 'Angela' and 'Barack' will be deciding such things between themselves.

We are, as it happens, in. If despite that 'Angela' and 'Barack' will be deciding such things between themselves, perhaps there really is not much point in our being in.

[scottycelt]

in or out of the EU, friends with Merkel or Obama or not, 60m people in one of the worlds richest countries is STILL too big a market for our current trading partners to ignore. People trade because they get good deals.
That's not an argument for making stupid decisions based on small minded nationalist sentiment...but it is worth bearing in mind.

Plus we got nukes !!

A Polish politician is reported to have said recently ... 'the UK needs Europe more than Europe needs the UK ... I found that particularly telling (and rather sad) coming from one of our closest allies.

I think Europe still needs a strong and involved UK, which I'm convinced is our future role in the world. Germany may be the economic powerhouse but the UK is best placed to provide political leadership and diplomacy and as a trading nation is almost unrivalled.

Europe can certainly survive without the UK, but both will be that much poorer if any threatened divorce takes place, imho.

[scottycelt]

We are, as it happens, in. If despite that 'Angela' and 'Barack' will be deciding such things between themselves, perhaps there really is not much point in our being in.

You miss the point.

It is the threat of 'not being in' which is the problem. If you were head of the US delegation responsible for any trade talks with the EU, who would you rather meet and talk to ... 'Angela' or 'David' ?

[MrGongGong]

It never ceases to puzzle me that many of the folk who are critical of the EU on the grounds of it's lack of democracy (and there ARE things that we should be critical of !) are often the same people who would defend till the death the royal family and even unelected peers in the house of Lords.

[teamsaint]

It never ceases to puzzle me that many of the folk who are critical of the EU on the grounds of it's lack of democracy (and there ARE things that we should be critical of !) are often the same people who would defend till the death the royal family and even unelected peers in the house of Lords.

quite. So that is two big puzzles then.
I bet we can think of some more. Or not bother.

[Flosshilde]

Am I correct in thinking that the 89 billions (whether puny Euros or mighty Pounds) is now 5 billions, and much of that could be simply be due to human error?

Less than 4% of any budget indicating 'irregularities' does not appear to me to be a particularly shocking statistic. On the contrary I find it impressive that a whopping 96% is apparently free of any such controversy and as others have hinted the obvious transparency in the exercise is wholly commendable. The usual 'Little Englander' misinformation should be totally ignored and not taken seriously by those in search of the facts. This thread is surely testament to that simple truth!

I see Cameron now wants a trade deal between the EU and the USA to 'boost world growth'. Well he and his Party had better quickly decide whether they are in or out of the EU or else both 'Angela' and 'Barack' will be deciding such things between themselves.

Why in pity's sake should either of them bother to listen to a 'semi-detached' Prime Minister and country which may well eventually decide to become completely detached from our European friends and neighbours and thus be without any power and influence whatsoever?