E-Bacc

[DracoM]

Can an expert give us a brief summary of the issues?

[Simon]

Can an expert give us a brief summary of the issues?

Here it is from the horse's mouth...

http://education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/qualifications/englishbac/a0075975/the-english-baccalaureate

Hope that helps.

There are all kinds of articles about it, most of them opposed to it. But then, you have to look for the vested interests...

In addition, "the left" and The Guardian are against it as a matter of course.

I have had no view up to now, as I haven't known much about it. But the article I linked to seems reasonable enough.

[MrGongGong]

I guess the "vested interests" are those of us who (probably in some kind of deranged Marxist fantasy according to some !) think that it's probably a good idea to include culture as part of education and not to simply turn education into glorified job training (for jobs that don't even exist !).

Gove (excuse my language) doesn't really have any credibility even amongst tory teachers, he is ignorant of what happens in schools and even what exams consist of already. The best example is the whole getting rid of GCSE and going back to O level / CSE style exams nonsense, I heard him on the radio saying how we needed to have a 2 tier exam system as GCSE was "failing" ....... and went on to say that there needed to be a "lower level" exam for those less able, which is odd because that's EXACTLY what happens with GCSE already ..............

without statutory obligations to teach subjects like music they will vanish from many schools (this is already happening as it is)
but I guess most people don't REALLY think it's that important after all we can still have the X factor and CFM (soooooooooooo relaxing )

[ardcarp]

I hope an expert will reply. But if we're talking of Gove's English Baccalaureat Certificate, Maggie Hamilton in her editorial of the November/December edition of Choir & Organ slams it for not including a compulsory Arts subject. I gather English, Maths, 2 Sciences, a foreign language and one of the so-called Humanities (History or Geography) will constitute the 'basket' of subjects. Whilst this will not preclude any school from offering Arts subjects (including Music) the probability is that the pressures of targets and league tables will leave them more beleaguered than ever.

[Simon]

You may be right, GG. As I said, I don't know.

I hope you're wrong about music: I can't imagine any of the schools I know ditching music entirely.

My "vested interest" comment was largely because I've learned over the years that many people hold the views they do to protect their own situation. Not surprising: I expect I would, myself, in some things. But it does, therefore, make me cynical: I usually try to look beyond the frothing and into the reasoning.

[Simon]

Yes, ardo, I know there's grief about no arts subject. That seems a big omission to me too, but then again, it would. I suppose their argument might be that those who are truly artistic will do the arts subjects anyway.

[ardcarp]

Sorry. Simon and McG beat me to it...and I did not mean to imply in any way they are not experts. I merely meant that I wasn't. I guess Gove is harking back to the old 'Matric'. What was different then was that schools and headteachers had much loftier and nobler ideas about education and were not hamstrung by the gods of 'cost-effectiveness'. A friend of mine, who years ago landed a job as head of music in a secondary school, was told by the headmaster at interview, "Every good school I know has excellent Music. So I want this place to have excellent music to make it a good school." Nice logic.

[DracoM]

My own discussions and reading now seem to suggest that over the next decade, instrumental teaching particularly is less and less likely to be done in schools at all, more and more to private / peripatetic / local tutors, thus instruction in the great traditions of European musics or of any musical instrument - including voice - is more and more likely to be the preserve of middle classes with aspirations and money and time to ferry their kids to and from.

I fear for youth orchestras ten or so years down the line, I fear that this whole initiative seems to be striking at the deepest roots of classical, jazz, serious folk music, or even much world / fusion in our population, and rendering only recorded music via video clips, rock / pop music via YouTube as the most likely long-running / surviving musical experiences for almost all kids.

If this is so, or even if it is only partially so, Gove has manufactured a scheme to administer a slow poison into the body of the Expressive Arts in UK.

[MrGongGong]

I hope you're wrong about music: I can't imagine any of the schools I know ditching music entirely.

I've seen this happen already in several places
"not ditching music" can mean that you have someone coming in to run a choir
what is at threat is music (and the other arts) as an intellectual and academic subject

My "vested interest" comment was largely because I've learned over the years that many people hold the views they do to protect their own situation.

Some do but not all you know

Yes, ardo, I know there's grief about no arts subject. That seems a big omission to me too, but then again, it would. I suppose their argument might be that those who are truly artistic will do the arts subjects anyway.

The same might be said for Chemistry ! it's not that one needs specialist equipment is it ?

My own discussions and reading now seem to suggest that over the next decade, instrumental teaching particularly is less and less likely to be done in schools at all.

I'm afraid you've missed the boat on this
when I and others were making a fuss about the National Plan for Music education in England and it's more daft ideas most people ignored it all

I'm afraid it's the "Big Yellow Taxi" effect

We have had a music education system that , while not being perfect in any way, is the envy of many all over the world
which is now being systematically destroyed

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The incompetence of Gove was exposed when he ordered E-Bacc. league tables to be created for schools, following the publication of GCSE results, having failed to metion the possibility beforehand. In principle, I'm not opposed to the idea of a core curriculum; it just shouldn't be assumed that the old grammar school subjects are necessarily the right and only ones to include.
As far as music is concerned, the present GCSE syllabuses hardly inspire confidence for the subject's inclusion.

[MrGongGong]

As far as music is concerned, the present GCSE syllabuses hardly inspire confidence for the subject's inclusion.

There's a lot wrong with it
but save us from a return to 'O'Level musicology like wot I did
I don't remember making ANY sounds at all in my O level

Part of the problem is (IMV) the "received wisdom" about what music "is" and what it "is for" , this was evident in the NPME document.

[gingerjon]

Can someone explain why we have this INGURLAND baccalaureate rather than the well-established international wotsit?

And can someone explain to me why no one has yet walked up to Gove and just slapped him round the chops until he goes away?

[Simon]

Ard: please feel free to imply that I am not an expert, because I certainly am not!

::::::::::

Can someone explain why we have this INGURLAND baccalaureate rather than the well-established international wotsit?

And whilst they are doing that, could somebody please explain what the main difference is between them?

And can someone explain to me why no one has yet walked up to Gove and just slapped him round the chops until he goes away?

Now, now. This is Britain. Just cos you don't agree with an elected Minister, he was elected properly and you can't do things like that, fortunately for our society.

[gingerjon]

Now, now. This is Britain. Just cos you don't agree with an elected Minister, he was elected properly and you can't do things like that, fortunately for our society.

But it would be the most awesome fun.

If we charged people £1 a slap we'd have the deficit problem solved in days.

And then Gove could get his face fixed on the new NHS and we could start again.

[teamsaint]

But it would be the most awesome fun.

If we charged people £1 a slap we'd have the deficit problem solved in days.

And then Gove could get his face fixed on the new NHS and we could start again.

and we could charge people extra to fast track to the front of the queue for the whole slapping thing, and spend the extra on infrastructure projects and supporting musical education in state schools.
Though violence is bad, obviously.