Phrases/words that set your teeth on edge.

[Pabmusic]

This is true only for those who fail to understand that the word 'man' frequently meant all of humankind, male and female.

Yes, of course one can argue that this is yet another demonstration of the sexism of previous ages. But hey, nobody can change this now, and constantly tripping over the same stumbling-block is just stupid and isolates us from so much of our greatest literature. Just get over it guys! (And gals of course, if 'guys' is still seen as a non-gender-neutral term)

"Man" originally meant "human, mankind" (from Proto-Germanic manwaz - cognates: Old Saxon, Swedish, Dutch, Old High German man, German Mann, Old Norse maðr, Danish mand, Gothic manna).

Anglo-Saxon distinguished the sexes by: wifman (female man - cf Dutch vrouwmens. It's where 'wife' comes from and explains uses such as housewife and fishwife); and werman or waepman (male man) - the first uses the prefix wer- as in werwulf, the second is possibly smutty joke since it means 'human with a weapon'. Wifman became wimman (plural wimmen).

However, the Clapham omnibus quote became reasonably well known after McQuire v. Western Morning News [1903] 2 KB 100 (CA) at 109 per Collins MR. Thus it is more likely to reflect the conventions of senior judges in 1903, which was only 21 years after married British women had been allowed to own property. In 1888 R v Clarence 22 QBD 23 had quashed the conviction of a husband who'd knowingly infected his wife with an STD because she was his wife and was thus deemed to have consented to intercourse. We've come on a bit since then.

Therefore, I suspect "the man on the Clapham omnibus" was very much a male in the mind of Master of the Rolls Collins - and of most other people.

However, that doesn't make the phrase sexist, since it has actually been used (in my experience) to represent the public at large. Now, if the expression used had been "Joe Public" or "yer average bloke in the street", it would have been equally gender-biased but not at all sexist since the usual meanings of those phrases are equally general. "Father Christmas" is arguably a more sexist expression.

It's not a very useful expression now, of course, because it's so old-fashioned. There are (believe it or not) people around who don't know what an omnibus is, quite apart from the rather unnecessary debate about sexism.

[LeMartinPecheur]

It's not a very useful expression now, of course, because it's so old-fashioned.

To say nothing of the inexplicable priority given to Clapham

[Pabmusic]

To say nothing of the inexplicable priority given to Clapham

[P. G. Tipps]

The clear aversion of some members to a particularly well-known area of our great capital city might easily be seen as pure Claphamphobia and will be deplored by many others here, I'm sure. There could well be an element of class-snobbery involved due to the district's robustly-proud 'Common' status. Train-spotters may also be deeply offended by apparently being excluded from this discussion.

I'm sure Her Royal Highness Catherine, The Duchess of Cambridge & Countess of Strathearn, would never dream of adopting such an horrid demeanour when arriving at Clapham, whether on the public omnibus, a privately-run train on Southern Railways, or a rather more appropriate and protective form of transport for a lady of her celebrated eminence and widely-admired refinement.

It should also be noted by members that Clapham Rovers FC won the world-famous FA Cup in 1880, surely a feat that will never, ever be repeated ...

[Beef Oven!]

It should also be noted by members that Clapham Rovers FC won the world-famous FA Cup in 1880, surely a feat that will never, ever be repeated ...

Wrong.

Many teams have won the FA cup, since then.

[Pabmusic]

The clear aversion of some members to a particularly well-known area of our great capital city might easily be seen as pure Claphamphobia and will be deplored by many others here, I'm sure. There could well be an element of class-snobbery involved due to the district's robustly-proud 'Common' status. Train-spotters may also be deeply offended by apparently being excluded from this discussion.

I'm sure Her Royal Highness Catherine, The Duchess of Cambridge & Countess of Strathearn, would never dream of adopting such an horrid demeanour when arriving at Clapham, whether on the public omnibus, a privately-run train on Southern Railways, or a rather more appropriate and protective form of transport for a lady of her celebrated eminence and widely-admired refinement.

It should also be noted by members that Clapham Rovers FC won the world-famous FA Cup in 1880, surely a feat that will never, ever be repeated ...

I'd hate anyone to think I'm a Claphamophobe. Perhaps I take an anticlaphamist stance because of a disagreement I once had with a passenger on a no. 88 bus. It rapidly disabused me of any respect I might have had for the man on the Clapham omnibus.

[ahinton]

The clear aversion of some members to a particularly well-known area of our great capital city might easily be seen as pure Claphamphobia and will be deplored by many others here, I'm sure. There could well be an element of class-snobbery involved due to the district's robustly-proud 'Common' status. Train-spotters may also be deeply offended by apparently being excluded from this discussion.

I'm not a Claphamophobe, although I am aware that Balham, not Clapham, is the gateway to the south.

I'm sure Her Royal Highness Catherine, The Duchess of Cambridge & Countess of Strathearn, would never dream of adopting such an horrid demeanour when arriving at Clapham, whether on the public omnibus, a privately-run train on Southern Railways, or a rather more appropriate and protective form of transport for a lady of her celebrated eminence and widely-admired refinement.

I cannot but admire your sense of humour, even if not so much the humour of your sense. No one was suggesting that Kate's a Claphamophobe, although I doubt that she visits the place frequently and would hardly do so on a bus! That said, the journey would take about as long as it takes to address her in this absurdly pedantic and formal manner.

[P. G. Tipps]

I'd hate anyone to think I'm a Claphamophobe. Perhaps I take an anticlaphamist stance because of a disagreement I once had with a passenger on a no. 88 bus. It rapidly disabused me of any respect I might have had for the man on the Clapham omnibus.

Okay, in that case you're now clearly exonerated over premature accusations of any phobias regarding Clapham, Pab ....

[ahinton]

Okay, in that case you're now clearly exonerated over premature accusations of any phobias regarding Clapham, Pab ....

OK, but I'm still trying to imagine how Kate might react to being addressed by you as "your Royal Highness Catherine, The Duchess of Cambridge & Countess of Strathearn" when on a bus bound for Clapham before you ask her if she comes to Clapham often or whether she fancies a Strathearn gin and tonic...

[cloughie]

As it's a new month I'll officially nominate my teeth of edge for November as TRENDING.

[french frank]

It rapidly disabused me of any respect I might have had for the man on the Clapham omnibus.

But are you sure it was the same one?

[Nick Armstrong]

I don't know for sure, but I imagine that the man on the Clapham omnibus (there's another one, albeit heard far more rarely these days than was once the case!) does so - or did so...

It's rather been jettisoned in favour of the "Moron in a hurry" test - something passes the test if only the said moron in a hurry would think differently.*

No gender issues with the word 'moron' I think - though is it now dubious from a 'political correctness' point of view?

.

* First used by Foster J in the 1978 case Morning Star Cooperative Society v Express Newspapers Limited, in which the publishers of the Morning Star sought an injunction to prevent Express Newspapers from launching the Daily Star. The judge ruled against the Morning Star, finding that "If one puts the two papers side by side I for myself would find that the two papers are so different in every way that only a moron in a hurry would be misled."

[vinteuil]

It's rather been jettisoned in favour of the "Moron in a hurry" test - something passes the test if only the said moron in a hurry would think differently.*

No gender issues with the word 'moron' I think - though is it now dubious from a 'political correctness' point of view?

.

* First used by Foster J in the 1978 case Morning Star Cooperative Society v Express Newspapers Limited, in which the publishers of the Morning Star sought an injunction to prevent Express Newspapers from launching the Daily Star. The judge ruled against the Morning Star, finding that "If one puts the two papers side by side I for myself would find that the two papers are so different in every way that only a moron in a hurry would be misled."

.

Thank you for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_moron_in_a_hurry

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

[P. G. Tipps]

"Father Christmas" is arguably a more sexist expression.

Is it?

'Father Christmas' can be traced right back to St Nicholas who was the 'real deal'. From all reports he was most definitely a man ... I doubt transgenderism was very much an issue in St Nick's time ... so to refer to him alongside a male title might appear to most folk as genderally accurate as well as wholly logical.

Yesterday I received a menu through the post which included 'Fisherwoman's Pie'. On further close examination the ingredients appeared to exactly mirror that of the more commonly-known 'Fisherman's Pie'.

I wonder if these (both the pies and the 'sexism') taste any different from each other... ?

[Flosshilde]

Further to 'the man in the Clapham omnibus', I'd always thought that this phrase had originated in the Lady Chatterly trial. However, exhaustive reasearch (otherwise known as a quick look at Wikipedia) told me that it was first used during a trial in 1903 (as Pabs has pointed out). However -

The use of the phrase was reviewed by the UK Supreme Court on appeal in the of case of Healthcare at Home Limited v. The Common Services Agency [2014] UKSC 49, in paragraphs 1 to 4:

1. The Clapham omnibus has many passengers. The most venerable is the reasonable man, who was born during the reign of Victoria but remains in vigorous health. Amongst the other passengers are the right-thinking member of society, familiar from the law of defamation, the officious bystander, the reasonable parent, the reasonable landlord, and the fair-minded and informed observer, all of whom have had season tickets for many years.

4. In recent times, some additional passengers from the European Union have boarded the Clapham omnibus. This appeal is concerned with one of them: the reasonably well-informed and normally diligent tenderer.


The omnibus has become rather busy since 1903

(Paragraph 3 suggests that it would be misconceived for a party to seek to lead evidence from actual passengers on the Clapham omnibus as to how they would have acted in a given situation