Phrases/words that set your teeth on edge.

[jean]

The convention (illogical, true) is: -

Simple statement of future:

I shall
You will
He/she/it will
We shall
You will
They will

(I shall be in town on Friday; you will probably find me in the pub)

Statement of intent, promise or obligation:

I will
You shall
He/she/it shall
We will
You shall
They shall

(I will be there, I promise. You shall get the drink I owe you then.)

[I'm not making this up.]

I used to think there was some basis for this convention in the fact that English like other Germanic languages originally had no future tense, but was forced to make one up out of odd bits of underused modal. This was confidently reiterated by Fowler; but after this discussion, I had to concude that I (and Fowler) may have been wrong in our understanding of the shall/will distinction.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree. Textbooks will tell you that "I will go to town next week" has emphasis, or is a promise - I'll definitely do it. "I shall go to town next week" is weaker - just a statement of fact that might change with the circumstances ("I shall go to town (perhaps) next week").

Well, you just jolly well tell those textbooks what I've said and put them right! It should be the other way round, surely - the "will" expressing a "wish", the "shall" a "commitment"?



I should point out that I am not and never have been Scotty's English teacher.

[Pabmusic]

I used to think there was some basis for this convention in the fact that English like other Germanic languages originally had no future tense, but was forced to make one up out of odd bits of underused modal. This was confidently reiterated by Fowler; but after this discussion, I had to concude that I (and Fowler) may have been wrong in our understanding of the shall/will distinction.

With you entirely, Jean.

[Pabmusic]

...I should point out that I am not and never have been Scotty's English teacher.

Would you want to have been?

[jean]

Possibly because your English teacher was remembering that "shall" refers to something that is going to happen (whether one wishes it or not) whilst "will" refers to intention/desire.

But only in the first person.

In the second and third, the significance is reversed (according to the convention) but the infant Scotty, having no power to enjoin anyone to do anything, did not need to know this.

[Pulcinella]

But that's three words. Should there be silence, or is one allowed to clap between each one?

It's syllables not words, SA.

I often hear the US form as HAP-py NEW-year, as if it's two hyphenated words, each with a stress on the first syllable.

[ahinton]

Oh no, I was simply the wrong kind of pupil, ahinton. Of that, I have absolutely no doubt. Oh, how my poor, poor teachers (and parents) must have suffered ...

That's no excuse for the kind of conduct that you mention as likely to have been committed by a responsible member of teaching staff.

We must also be careful not to judge our forebears by the quite different standards of acceptability today.

Were no one ever to do that, such "standards" might never change - or at least not so easily.

That is grossly unfair, if I may be bold enough to say so, ahinton. Each generation smugly considers it has superior "standards" to the one that went before and each generation will inevitably get its own comeuppance via the one that follows!

This is not about necessarily about assertions of "superior" standards or indeed forward progress per se but about a particular human rights and decency of conduct between humans. That's all. If "tawsing" were deemed generally "acceptable" today but wasn't a few generataions back, the erroneous behaviour would belong to the present and not to the past.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But only in the first person.

In the second and third, the significance is reversed (according to the convention) but the infant Scotty, having no power to enjoin anyone to do anything, did not need to know this.

Unless Scotty's teacher was using the older convention (the one that upset Coriolanus), in which case a pupil telling a teacher what that teacher "shall" do would indeed provoke the ire mentioned in his post.


(And, to answer Pabs - No. )

[gurnemanz]

I agree. Textbooks will tell you that "I will go to town next week" has emphasis, or is a promise - I'll definitely do it. "I shall go to town next week" is weaker - just a statement of fact that might change with the circumstances ("I shall go to town (perhaps) next week").

The purest kind of future we have - free of will/shall modality - just uses the present continuous: "I'm going to town next week". Or even the simple present: "We leave tomorrow".

The will/shall issue is avoided most of the time in speech because we usually use the abbreviated: I'll, we'll, you'll etc which can presumably stand for either.

[DracoM]

Must have come up, but I've missed it.
What truly grates for me is the way huge numbers now start an answer to a question with 'SO'. Media littered with it. I simply do not understand how this has gradually crept into becoming the default position.

[jean]

Unless Scotty's teacher was using the older convention (the one that upset Coriolanus), in which case a pupil telling a teacher what that teacher "shall" do would indeed provoke the ire mentioned in his post.

But if you look at the post of scotty's that I was replying to, you'll see that his teacher was only talking about the first person.

Either that, or the infant scotty wasn't listening properly.

.

[Pabmusic]

Must have come up, but I've missed it.
What truly grates for me is the way huge numbers now start an answer to a question with 'SO'. Media littered with it. I simply do not understand how this has gradually crept into becoming the default position.

I think it may have started as an affectation, suggesting that the speaker is dragging the conversation back to the main topic (at least in the speaker's view): "So [stop mucking about - let's get back to it] ... is it a Chinese or an Indian?"

At least that's what I think.

So...?

[Pabmusic]

...Either that, or the infant scotty wasn't listening properly.

[jean]

What truly grates for me is the way huge numbers now start an answer to a question with 'SO'.

I'm tempted to say 'So what?'

Spoken language is littered with fillers, which fulfil a variety of functions. You'll never eliminate them. You might as well try to stop people clapping between movements.

When my Italian students prefaced their replies to my questions with the near-analogous 'Allora...', they were playing for time.

[Richard Tarleton]

Spoken language is littered with fillers, which fulfil a variety of functions. You'll never eliminate them. You might as well try to stop people clapping between movements.

When my Italian students prefaced their replies to my questions with the near-analogous 'Allora...', they were playing for time.

In Spanish, Pues....

The Spanish OU Diploma course (excellent) actually taught you fillers, so that you sounded more authentic (in preference to "um" or "well")