Phrases/words that set your teeth on edge.

[vinteuil]

Might have known it would be the Scots' fault. I must say though, whether in the OED or not, I have not come across either word before.

1578 Lindesay(Pitscottie) 'They began to delate his proudfull ambitioun and disdainning of the pepill.'
1881 WC Smith, in Modern Scots Poets 'She leaves his proudfu' mither Draggin through the dowie heather'
1572 Knox History of the Reformation 'The pridefull and scornefull people that stood by, mocked him.'
1843 Carlyle Hist Jas 1 & Chas 1 'Why should not such a man be prideful?'

[mangerton]

Thank you, vinteuil. It's interesting to see more words which we would regard as archaic ("gotten" is another) still in use in US English. Nothing wrong with archaic language of course, as my use the other day of "manufactory" indicates.

[Pabmusic]

Thank you, vinteuil. It's interesting to see more words which we would regard as archaic ("gotten" is another) still in use in US English. Nothing wrong with archaic language of course, as my use the other day of "manufactory" indicates.

'Gotten' is an interesting case because, although it's dropped out of use in Britain, 'forgotten' hasn't. 'Gotten' is used in relation to 'got' in exactly the way 'forgotten' is in relation to 'forgot'.

[mercia]

'Gotten' is used in relation to 'got' in exactly the way 'forgotten' is in relation to 'forgot'.

is it though ? when an American says "he gotten used to it" we would say "he got used to it"
but nobody substitutes forgotten for forgot in a sentence, do they ?

[Pabmusic]

is it though ? when an American says "he gotten used to it" we would say "he got used to it"

but you couldn't substitute forgot for forgotten in a sentence, could you ?

That's just the language developing - it's been a few hundred years since we stopped using it and both languages have developed separately since then. Anyway, I think your example would be regarded as bad English in the US. "I have gotten the book - it's in the car" is distinguished from "I got the book you asked me for" (substitute forgotten and forgot to see the similarity).

Here's David Crystal:

Gotten is probably the most distinctive of all the AmE/BrE grammatical differences, but British people who try to use it often get it wrong. It is not simply an alternative for have got. Gotten is used in such contexts as

They've gotten a new boat. (= obtain)
They've gotten interested. (= become)
He's gotten off the chair. (= moved)

But it is not used in the sense of immediate possession (= have). AmE does not allow

I've gotten the answer
or I've gotten plenty

but uses I've got as in informal BrE.

The availability of gotten does however mean that AmE can make such distinctions as the following:

They've got to leave (they must leave) -vs-
They've gotten to leave (they've managed to leave).

Not exactly straightforward.

[jean]

...when an American says "he gotten used to it"...

American usage is complex (as Pab says) but surely gotten is always a past participle rather than a simple past?

[mercia]

I probably heard "he gotten used to it" in an old cowboy film, "he's gotten used to it" would be better i.e. he has become, as per pab's example

he'd gotten used to it
he had become ...

[Pabmusic]

American usage is complex (as Pab says) but surely gotten is always a past participle rather than a simple past?

Yes, I'd have said so (but I'm not American).

But the Americans must have plenty of sloppy speakers, just as we do.

[cloughie]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Somethings-Gotten-Hold-Heart-Collection/dp/B000AMSRS0/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1374306996&sr=1-2&keywords=gene+pitney+something%27s+gotten+hold

...but the song wouldn't be the same without it!

You'd think the excuse would because it was American but the song was written by two Englishmen - Roger Cook and Roger Greenaway.

[mercia]

I might as well dig myself further into a hole - are we not allowing "he's gotten used to it" to mean "he has become used to it" ?

if we are allowing it, then

he'd gotten used to it = he had become used to it
he's gotten used to it = he has become used to it
he gotten used to it = he became used to it

after a while I became used to commuting to work every day, I gotten used to it

[gurnemanz]

'Gotten' is an interesting case because, although it's dropped out of use in Britain, 'forgotten' hasn't. 'Gotten' is used in relation to 'got' in exactly the way 'forgotten' is in relation to 'forgot'.

British English still has some fossilised forms still in common use, e.g. "ill-gotten". Likewise, the archaic verb "to beget", past participle "begotten", but still common in the expression "misbegotten" (ill-conceived). Interesting that an alternative preterite to "begot" is "begat", as found in Genesis: "Methusael begat Lamech." etc. This vowel shift from "e" to "a" parallels the German past tense "vergaß" from "vergessen" (to forget).

[jean]

he'd gotten used to it = he had become used to it
he's gotten used to it = he has become used to it

Those are fine - gotten is an alternative past participle form, with its own set of rules in AmE.

But have you any evidence that anyone says

he gotten used to it = he became used to it

There's a further (American) discussion of David Crystal's analysis here, but no mention of gotten except as past participle.

(We're not allowing anything I suggest, just observing a developing usage!)

[jean]

Interesting that an alternative preterite to "begot" is "begat", as found in Genesis...

We also find the preterite gat from get - here's I Kings 1, 1:

Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

[mercia]

But have you any evidence that anyone says ...

erm, no
so, in that circumstance our Americans would say "he got [=became] used to it"

I shall shut up

[cloughie]

I get annoyed with the mis-use of 'sat'. Am I correct in thinking 'He was sat next to me' is grammatical incorrect and should be either 'He sat next to me' or 'He was sitting next to me'?