Phrases/words that set your teeth on edge.

[oliver sudden]

You asked a, let me get this straight, ...a double bass player?

Well he was the only native French speaker in the room at the time…

[Ein Heldenleben]

I feel as if I should apologise for posting the above, as the arguments have raged without resolve for a day. It wasn't even my main criticism of EC (and particularly their treatment of French culture).

What led to my break with the programme was Georgia's insistence that the words of Vaughan Williams' song 'The sky above the roof' was written by Mabel Dearmer - a wonderful woman poet she told us. I was straight on the case and told her that the words used by VW were obviously just an almost word for word translation of Paul Verlaine's 'Le ciel est, par-dessus Le toit'. Georgia had, just the week before, been telling us what an interesting poet Verlaine was - but not interesting enough to have bothered reading one of his best known works!

After the song had finished she again praised the poet for her insight into loneliness - she had told us this is what it is about - no mention of prison at all!

The Verlaine poem is much better isn’t it ? - such suggestive and deft economy of expression . Just a few very simple telling images.The translation descends into archaisms “doth” and “thy” redolent of the English Hymnal.

[Roger Webb]

The Verlaine poem is much better isn’t it ? - such suggestive and deft economy of expression . Just a few very simple telling images.The translation descends into archaisms “doth” and “thy” redolent of the English Hymnal.

Agreed. I have seen other translations, André Gide I seem to remember and of course the Ernest Dowson - the trees 'Swayeth' though! But I like Dowson....he at least was on the inside of the Paris milieu and had the good sense to die of 'Chronic Neglect' surely an excellent counter note to any Romatic (edit: I'm sure I put Romantic!) poet's CV!

For me Delius gets to the heart of the French version - and sounds more 'French' than many who truly are! Try the orch. version with Felicity Lott UK CD 2075.

[oliver sudden]

Well he was the only native French speaker in the room at the time…

But wait! Here comes our tuba player:

La règle voudrait qu'il y ait liaison

and the casting vote appears to go to our bassoonist:

C’est facultatif. La règle serait de le faire mais on l’entend de moins en moins souvent. Ça dépend du contexte. Si c’est formel, language soutenu, oui. Si c’est familier, plutôt non.

[oddoneout]

I feel as if I should apologise for posting the above, as the arguments have raged without resolve for a day. It wasn't even my main criticism of EC (and particularly their treatment of French culture).

What led to my break with the programme was Georgia's insistence that the words of Vaughan Williams' song 'The sky above the roof' was written by Mabel Dearmer - a wonderful woman poet she told us. I was straight on the case and told her that the words used by VW were obviously just an almost word for word translation of Paul Verlaine's 'Le ciel est, par-dessus Le toit'. Georgia had, just the week before, been telling us what an interesting poet Verlaine was - but not interesting enough to have bothered reading one of his best known works!

After the song had finished she again praised the poet for her insight into loneliness - she had told us this is what it is about - no mention of prison at all!

Goodness, that takes me back rather too many decades, to grammar school french classes. We had to learn that poem by heart and then recite it in class; with about 30 to get through it took quite a few lessons. I liked reciting poetry and very much enjoyed my french classes so it's a pleasant memory - I have thankfully forgotten the struggles some classmates had and the damage inflicted on poor Verlaine's work.

[Roger Webb]

Goodness, that takes me back rather too many decades, to grammar school french classes. We had to learn that poem by heart and then recite it in class; with about 30 to get through it took quite a few lessons. I liked reciting poetry and very much enjoyed my french classes so it's a pleasant memory - I have thankfully forgotten the struggles some classmates had and the damage inflicted on poor Verlaine's work.

Yes, poor Verlaine.....but don't forget he probably inflicted similar learning by rote on the pupils at William Lovell's at Stickney, Lincolnshire when he taught French, Latin, Greek there!

[Nick Armstrong]

C’est facultatif. La règle serait de le faire mais on l’entend de moins en moins souvent. Ça dépend du contexte. Si c’est formel, language soutenu, oui. Si c’est familier, plutôt non.

Exactement!

[Serial_Apologist]

Goodness, that takes me back rather too many decades, to grammar school french classes. We had to learn that poem by heart and then recite it in class; with about 30 to get through it took quite a few lessons. I liked reciting poetry and very much enjoyed my french classes so it's a pleasant memory - I have thankfully forgotten the struggles some classmates had and the damage inflicted on poor Verlaine's work.

Blimey! I studied A-Level French, but at least we didn't have to learn and recite poems in French! This was in the early 60s.

[french frank]

Blimey! I studied A-Level French, but at least we didn't have to learn and recite poems in French! This was in the early 60s.

We were collared for the annual university-organised 'Spoken French' competition:

"Un riche laboureur, sentant sa mort prochaine,
Fit venir ses enfants, leur parla sans témoins ..."
[Le corbeau et le renard and La cigale et la fourmi also available, partially]

I didn't win though

[Roger Webb]

[QUOTE=french frank;n1300036]


[Le corbeau et le renard and La cigale et la fourmi also available, partially/QUOTE]

Also available wholly as the two songs in Maurice Delage's Deux fables de la Fontaine for soprano and chamber ensemble.

[french frank]

[QUOTE=Roger Webb;n1300038]

[Le corbeau et le renard and La cigale et la fourmi also available, partially/QUOTE]

Also available wholly as the two songs in Maurice Delage's Deux fables de la Fontaine for soprano and chamber ensemble.

Even better!

[oddoneout]

Blimey! I studied A-Level French, but at least we didn't have to learn and recite poems in French! This was in the early 60s.

The learning by heart was just the once but we did occasionally have poetry included in our lessons. The teacher was French - a fiery, unpredictable, Provencal woman, who took a creative approach to the O level syllabus. However her habit of conducting many of the lessons entirely in French paid dividends which have stayed with me, occasionally reinforced by evening classes(but not for many years now since Adult Education became catch-up literacy and numeracy), and it is satisfying to be able to get the gist of random bits of text, such as ff's quote, more often than not.
German was taught by an equally stereotypical native, learning by rote and constant repetition. I never mastered being able to think in german as I could with french and thoroughly disliked the lessons but fragments stayed. Enough as it turned out to help my daughter with her disastrous choice of german for GCSE in 1995, although very little now, as occasional german choral works don't provide the necessary regular upkeep!

[gurnemanz]

Blimey! I studied A-Level French, but at least we didn't have to learn and recite poems in French! This was in the early 60s.

I did A Level French, German and English in 1967. Much rote learning was necessary in all of these subjects, not to be recited in class but as quotes to back up points being made in exam essays. Over 50 years later some of them are still in my head.
One such is Enobarbus in Antony and Cleo sarcastically chipping in with: "That truth should be silent I had almost forgot."
I later did German Lit as a degree course, where similar quote learning was essential.
Nowadays I think students can take set texts into the exam - spoilt rotten, I would say, but on the other hand I sometimes do quite enjoy being able to recall that stuff decades later.

[LMcD]

I did A Level French, German and English in 1967. Much rote learning was necessary in all of these subjects, not to be recited in class but as quotes to back up points being made in exam essays. Over 50 years later some of them are still in my head.
One such is Enobarbus in Antony and Cleo sarcastically chipping in with: "That truth should be silent I had almost forgot."
I later did German Lit as a degree course, where similar quote learning was essential.
Nowadays I think students can take set texts into the exam - spoilt rotten, I would say, but on the other hand I sometimes do quite enjoy being able to recall that stuff decades later.

'Ich weiss nicht, was soll es bedeuten / Dass ich so traurig bin ....'

'Alors il etait nuit / Et Jesus marchait seul....'

[vinteuil]

I sometimes do quite enjoy being able to recall that stuff decades later.

"Laurent, serrez ma haire avec ma discipline,
Et priez que toujours le ciel vous illumine.
Si l’on vient pour me voir, je vais aux prisonniers
Des aumônes que j’ai, partager les deniers."

"Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra?"

"Vivre? Nos serviteurs feront cela pour nous..."
.