Phrases/words that set your teeth on edge.

[Lat-Literal]

Interesting, Lat.
I put forward a suggestion, above, that 'given that' and 'seeing as' are not quite interchangeable in practice. 'Given that' is much more exacting than 'seeing as', so that the former needs to quantify the number of hours more precisely than the latter, in your example.
It's an Irish (language) thing, don't you know!

I agree with you padraig and thanks for your reply. Will tread as carefully as I can on such matters but notwithstanding the outstanding contributions from Irish people to literature I suppose I'm blase or even positive about "ordinary" regional or national ways of communicating. It is more what the supposed movers and shakers, many of whom will be Irish, say.

Absolutely spot-on ahinton!

The only logical answer to fit in with modern social mores is to refer to both as Lions or, if one wishes to reveal team-gender for the benefit of fans, as Male Lions or Female Lions.

Modern society mustn't (or surely shouldn't) discriminate between those who perform on stage and those who do so on a football field?

My own opinion on the matter is quite irrelevant. My argument, I confidently contend, is simply based on sound logic and the stated goal of equal treatment for all.

I know where I stand on these diversity issues, perhaps especially as they pertain to language, Instinctively, I always believed I was wholly for the direction we have now to some extent reached. I do think that belief was right and it was mainly evident in my statements and actions. However, there is a point and I know that isn't the same as your point or anywhere near it where it starts to do my proverbial head in. It is where I suspect that there is a strong element of manipulation. At that point, I don't oppose it but I do completely walk away.

I don't like competition. Never have done. I don't like power in anyone. I don't like big money in anyone. I'm not going to go beyond support for equalities as to do so sends me insane. Almost literally - I can't handle it - because it so aligned to neo-liberal economics. That's essentially what I see when it is being pushed. A lot of these people aren't anything other than playing the ultra privileged white man. And obviously that is so very deeply unattractive. By far my happiest times were when I was poorer than I am now. More people should have an opportunity to enjoy it - they might find humour - it is only culture that gets in the way. Lineker - working class as was. Evans - ditto. Winkleman - a woman. Alegiah - black. Norton - gay. Sorry. There's a real world out here in which inequality often really means something. The more the media becomes la-la land, the less it is worth anything at all. And it isn't much.

Round 3 - Six new FOI enquiries submitted this afternoon - DWP. HMT. Home Office. Business, Energy and Innovation. Health. Culture, Media and Sport. "How much money has your Department spent on public information commercials on commercial radio and television stations since 1 January 2015? If you do not have any record of this information, I will settle for the most recent information you have in line with your responsibilities for public accountability. Details on the nature of these commercials should also be provided". To the bitter end!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Modern society mustn't (or surely shouldn't) discriminate between those who perform on stage and those who do so on a football field?

But it doesn't and hasn't in this matter - male and female footballers are ... footballers; there is, and never has been, such a thing as a "footballeress".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wondered at one point, whether there was a difference between what one does and what one is: a "teacher" refers to someone of either sex who teaches - "lion/ess" is a distinct sex indicator, like "man" and "woman".

But, it being Friday afternoon, I then remembered "dominatrix", so it's not so simplistic.

[french frank]

The grammatical difference is that 'given' is a past partciple, implying perhaps that what's 'given' has already been estabished beyond doubt, whereas 'seeing' is a present partciple, which might imply that I'm telling you something I've only just thought of.[/I]

What about 'seeing that' as, semantically, equivalent to 'bearing in mind that'? Mentally seeing For me the difficulty is the 'as' in place of 'that'. Given as it has 132 rooms, bearing in mind as it has 132 rooms, considering as it has 132 rooms.

[jean]

But, it being Friday afternoon...

Or (dialectically of course) being as how it is...

[jean]

What about 'seeing that' as, semantically, equivalent to 'bearing in mind that'? Mentally seeing For me the difficulty is the 'as' in place of 'that'.

Yes, I haven't solved that one yet.

It might be that 'seeing that', especially after it had lost the 'that' and become just 'seeing' (as sometimes even in the KJV) then just got added for extra weight to an 'as' which, as several posters have pointed out, does the job quite well by itseslf.

[Lat-Literal]

Diversion:

Back in the day when I was young and supposed to be going somewhere, we'd sit eating our Saturday evening tea - egg and bacon - and enjoy listening to clever people who were entertaining but who often went over our heads. Ah, the joys of a certain class background. Apparently, the programme was accused in broadsheets of being pretentious. I still love it. The difference is that I understand it all now unlike when I was acquiring state authorised qualifications assessing "brilliance". And Robert Robinson*, with many faults, is a radio hero:

Like it if you can:

Stop The Week - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-j2Ipgdcn4

*Robert Robinson was born in Liverpool and educated at Raynes Park Grammar School before Exeter College, Oxford.

Apologies Angela, my manifesto is calling me.

[P. G. Tipps]

'Back in the day ... '

Yet another American import, this time of Afro-American origin, apparently.

I suspect this may have been mentioned before but, if so, it's well worth mentioning again and, in any case, it saves me spending ages going through this very long thread and then maybe having to annoyingly delete this post as a result of all that hard and time-consuming work ...

[french frank]

It might be that 'seeing that', especially after it had lost the 'that' and become just 'seeing' (as sometimes even in the KJV) then just got added for extra weight to an 'as' which, as several posters have pointed out, does the job quite well by itseslf.

Have we quoted the OED yet? It considers 'seeing' a conjunction, normally 'seeing that' or elliptically 'seeing'; 'seeing as (how)' is colloquial. A more general use of 'as' for 'that' (e.g. "I don't know as I can") is now regional (south UK and US).

[jean]

Have we quoted the OED yet?

Yes we have!

I repeat below my earlier post #3857, which nobody seems to have noticed:

What do people make of 'seeing as' (BBC News story 'But seeing as there are 132 rooms in total …')?

I'd use seeing that.

I remember being taught at school that seeing as was terribly wrong, which is probably why I shudder involuntarily when I see or hear it. An education marker as you say, but I don't know why, seeing that...

(1) Seeing that is well established:

1504 W. Barons in Paston Lett. & Papers (2004) II. 501 I wol..exhorte you to take it as..paciently as ye can, seeyng that we al be mortal and borne to dey.

1526 Bible (Tyndale) John ii. 18 What token shewest thou vnto vs, seynge that thou dost these thinges? [So most later versions.]

(2) Then, to judge from later OED citations, the that disappears altogether...

1711 J. Puckle Club (1817) 35 Seeing Great Britain affords so many lawyers,..he is doubly a fool that..applies himself to a scab.

1796 H. Hunter tr. J. H. B. de Saint-Pierre Stud. Nature (1799) III. 578 It must be of importance to accustom young people to it [sc. vegetable diet], seeing it's influence is..so happy on beauty of person and tranquillity of soul.

...and (3) seeing as appears in 1833, with Dickens:

1833 Dickens Let. 18 Mar. (1965) I. 17 Seeing as I cannot fail to do that I have engaged in a pursuit.

...and then (4) we start to get seeing as how (first noted in Dialect Notes, 1895), which is utterly beyond the pale:

1974 S. Gulliver Vulcan Bull. 29 Seeing as how you're always short of £sd, I thought you could maybe earn a bit.

.

[jean]

What about 'seeing that' as, semantically, equivalent to 'bearing in mind that'? Mentally seeing For me the difficulty is the 'as' in place of 'that'. Given as it has 132 rooms, bearing in mind as it has 132 rooms, considering as it has 132 rooms.

Yes; you'd never find 'as' with those.

But they are the nearest grammatical equivalent. Defining 'inasmuch as', the OED has:

2. In that; in view of the fact that; seeing that; considering that; on the ground or for the reason that; since, because.

It's forgotten that under seeing it listed seeing as without comment!

[P. G. Tipps]

'We apologise to anyone who might have just heard some industrial language which our microphones may have picked up ... '

'Industrial language' ... a strange media euphemism for words which, in a rather more direct age, used to be pretty accurately described as 'foul and obscene'. I fail to see much of a connection between 'industry' and the use of such expletives. I can only assume that our normally rigidly politically-correct media consider such language is spoken solely by the working-classes. If so, that is quite shocking and someone should be sacked.

Memo to TV Sports Presenters: Please don't insult viewers in such a silly and patronising manner. Anyone who goes to a football match expects to hear 'industrial language' during the course of the game. That includes children. They probably have heard similar or even worse in the school playground. It may be sad, but no one is hugely surprised. Anyone truly offended by such language will not go to a football match or watch it on TV. They are also likely to avoid any other sort of sporting fixture, visit their local pub, go on a Stag or Hen Do, or any other event where idiots, including some players and coaches themselves, are likely to be present and then proceed to regularly exercise their big, fat foul-mouths.

Just ignore them. We know their mouths are not the fault of the TV Company or its Microphones. Honestly ...

[teamsaint]

'We apologise to anyone who might have just heard some industrial language which our microphones may have picked up ... '

'Industrial language' ... a strange media euphemism for words which, in a rather more direct age, used to be pretty accurately described as 'foul and obscene'. I fail to see much of a connection between 'industry' and the use of such expletives. I can only assume that our normally rigidly politically-correct media consider such language is spoken solely by the working-classes. If so, that is quite shocking and someone should be sacked.

Memo to TV Sports Presenters: Please don't insult viewers in such a silly and patronising manner. Anyone who goes to a football match expects to hear 'industrial language' during the course of the game. That includes children. They probably have heard similar or even worse in the school playground. It may be sad, but no one is hugely surprised. Anyone truly offended by such language will not go to a football match or watch it on TV. They are also likely to avoid any other sort of sporting fixture, visit their local pub, go on a Stag or Hen Do, or any other event where idiots, including some players and coaches themselves, are likely to be present and then proceed to regularly exercise their big, fat foul-mouths.

Just ignore them. We know their mouths are not the fault of the TV Company or its Microphones. Honestly ...

You make an interesting point about the description" Industrial Language" Tippsy.
There is a hierarchy for those from the right side of the tracks. Profession. Commerce. Industry.Arts.

Or something.

[greenilex]

I think the arts float about in an intellectual no-mans-land above and below the standard class system. Perhaps you don't agree?

[teamsaint]

I think the arts float about in an intellectual no-mans-land above and below the standard class system. Perhaps you don't agree?

Well yes, I do kind of agree, as does sport in these highly paid days, for the top earners.

But as one teacher said to one of my sons, " Well you always have your music ", ( subtext, " if all else fails".It didn't, actually.)

Ken Robinson on how the arts rank in the education system

But something strikes you when you move to America and travel around the world: Every education system on Earth has the same hierarchy of subjects. Every one. Doesn't matter where you go. You'd think it would be otherwise, but it isn't. At the top are mathematics and languages, then the humanities, and at the bottom are the arts. Everywhere on Earth. And in pretty much every system too, there's a hierarchy within the arts. Art and music are normally given a higher status in schools than drama and dance. There isn't an education system on the planet that teaches dance everyday to children the way we teach them mathematics. Why? Why not? I think this is rather important. I think math is very important, but so is dance. Children dance all the time if they're allowed to, we all do. We all have bodies, don't we? Did I miss a meeting?

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity/transcript?language=en

I suspect, in fact have seen, that the better smarter independent schools tend to try to channel their students into areas for which they are best suited these days, ( subject to an extent to the ideal of medicine at Oxbridge if at all possible, , or if not..... and so on.....) but outside of this, the old hierarchy of occupations , which doesn't of course necessarily relate to pay, still has a strong hold. And of course the better Independent schools have the resources to allow really great opportunities to help develop those talents . EG, IIRC, over 60% of chart singles are now recorded by those educated privately.
It's a simplification, but always worth bearing in mind, IMO.

Probably off topic now.....