Opera and sex - alright, gender.

[Guest]

Is there a difference between the responses of men and women to opera? Any thoughts, however unscientific?

[umslopogaas]

The response of most women I know to opera is "Please can we listen to something else?"

[french frank]

The response of most women I know to opera is "Please can we listen to something else?"

Is that a scientific or unscientific observation?

We four neighbours off to the opera later in the week: three women, one man ...

Male, 20-something:

"Another of today’s guests was Bryn Terfel, talking about a festival he’s running at the Southbank Centre in London. He also sang live in the studio, though I’m not sure that its really my favorite style of music. Opera can be very annoying at times – I find it quite hard to listen to."

QED

[salymap]

When I was working I was offered tickets for CG and my reaction was 'Yes, please'. It's one thing to see a new modern opera, for me quite another to listen to the radio or CD. I have tinnitus now and certainly can't listen at home to opera and only to pieces of music that I know pretty well

I meant to say, men in my family wouldn't go near an opera house or listen on R3. My only truly musical cousin 'lives' for Bach Cantatas.

[umslopogaas]

FF, its Umslopogaas's Hypothesis, based on sufficient scientific observations to formulate as an hypothesis, but not yet sufficiently tested to become a scientific law (and I do know one woman who does like opera).

[jayne lee wilson]

I guess I'm an operaphobe, yes, certainly with anything before 1900... I've enjoyed some Mozart - some years ago - but couldn't sit through one now. I was a Perfect Wagnerite in my 20s and 30s - well The Ring and Tristan at least - wonder if I'll ever take them on again, though the response to the music is still there. But then I'm something of a theatrephobe too so... In the 20thC, I have enjoyed Berg, Schoenberg, Birtwistle and so on, but it remains very selective and it's always recordings, not live attendance.

I could say it's the voices that are the problem, but then I love Beethoven's 9th finale (don't all shout at once) and other choral works, whereas others say the opposite for the same reasons!

But I'm never entirely comfortable, physically, listening to most traditional, operatically sung vocal music. It's "Evenings in the Orchestra" for me.

[Serial_Apologist]

I guess I'm an operaphobe, yes, certainly with anything before 1900... I've enjoyed some Mozart - some years ago - but couldn't sit through one now. I was a Perfect Wagnerite in my 20s and 30s - well The Ring and Tristan at least - wonder if I'll ever take them on again, though the response to the music is still there. But then I'm something of a theatrephobe too so... In the 20thC, I have enjoyed Berg, Schoenberg, Birtwistle and so on, but it remains very selective and it's always recordings, not live attendance.

I could say it's the voices that are the problem, but then I love Beethoven's 9th finale (don't all shout at once) and other choral works, whereas others say the opposite for the same reasons!

But I'm never entirely comfortable, physically, listening to most traditional, operatically sung vocal music. It's "Evenings in the Orchestra" for me.

I'm generally of the same mind, jayne - though this doesn't in any way relate to the subject matter here. Operas have to be 20th century for me and preferably heard at home or on record in someone's home - and even then Wozzeck, Moses und Aron, Die Glueckliche Hand, Erwartung and L'Enfant et les Sortileges are about my limit, though I'd probably open up to Janacek and Henze. When I came on board the old BC R3 forum I was however pleased to find opera and oratoriophiles writing in castigation of singers exhibiting excessive vibrato, or "wobble". If the latter practice were made redundant maybe I'd get to like traditional opera too, or some of it, but not 19th century Italian, though Baroque is OK though I wouldn't go out of my way to see or hear it - too much suspension of disbelief being my main problem with opera. Gender has little to do with it imv.

[Roslynmuse]

My perception of the membership of this forum is that generally vocal music is not much liked - with the exceptions of Choral Evensong, occasional other chamber choir -type programmes, and Wagner. Reading the comments above, it's twentieth century opera that (apart from Wagner) gets most attention eg John Adams during the Proms, rather than the regular Saturday night/ Thursday afternoon broadcasts. I guess what I'm really saying is that perhaps we're not a completely representative bunch of listeners (and I've no idea what the male-female ratio is on here either). Speaking for myself (male), I generally enjoy going to the opera more than orchestral concerts nowadays, but go to fewer of them because of time constraints. I'll certainly make the effort to travel to hear Wagner if I can, or an opera I haven't seen live before. My tastes are pretty wide now too, although my appreciation of Italian opera starts with late Verdi - I don't think I've seen a single Rossini/Donizetti/Bellini. I'm much more interested in the by-ways of French opera, from Meyerbeer (under-rated) and Berlioz (genius) through Bizet, Gounod, Saint-Saens (the latter IMHO rather less interesting than the other two but not as dull as Massenet), Delibes and Chabrier (some excellent stuff from them both) through to the one-offs by Lalo, Dukas, Chausson, Fauré, d'Indy, Roussel etc. Just getting more interested in the lighter French rep too - Offenbach, Messager, Beydts etc. Earlier rep of any nationality doesn't grab me - yet - but I'll be seeing Monteverdi's Ulysses in December and I'm intrigued by what I have heard of Rameau and Gluck. Oh, and Fidelio isn't bad either! Handel and Mozart are blind spots, I'm afraid.

The other point I want to make is that art-song is another area that I find under-reported on this forum - or perhaps, to echo comments by Jayne and Hornspieler, people simply don't listen to R3 broadcasts any more! (Not that there's a surfeit of song recitals - and those that we do hear tend to present the same rather limited repertoire - disappointing when one considers how extensive the mélodie, Lied, English song, Spanish, Russian etc etc rep is.)

[ardcarp]

Is there a difference between the responses of men and women to MUSIC ? Any thoughts, however unscientific?

Sorry; I've just broadened the discussion a bit.

(My answer is 'no' by the way, and I don't see why 'opera' should be singled out for special treatment.)

[Dave2002]

I guess I'm an operaphobe, yes, certainly with anything before 1900... I've enjoyed some Mozart - some years ago - but couldn't sit through one now. finale (don't all shout at once) and other choral works, whereas others say the opposite for the same reasons!

But I'm never entirely comfortable, physically, listening to most traditional, operatically sung vocal music. It's "Evenings in the Orchestra" for me.

Jayne

If you get a chance to see the Glyndebourne Marriage of Figaro - currently touring with the touring company - the nearest it gets to you is I think Stoke - then I recommend you should try it. If that doesn't switch something on, I don't know what will!

I don't know what makes the difference between a very good experience and a merely OK one, though. ENO's Magic Flute last week was OK, difficult to see anything wrong, but compared with the Glyndebourne MofF it just didn't feel in the same league. Maybe it wasn't just the performance though - perhaps MofF really is one of the best ever, even trumping other works by the same composer.

I don't think that DVDs of opera are ever particularly good - though might be OK if you've seen a good performance and want a reminder. OTOH they may be more frustrating than worthwhile.

[David-G]

Jayne

If you get a chance to see the Glyndebourne Marriage of Figaro - currently touring with the touring company - the nearest it gets to you is I think Stoke - then I recommend you should try it. If that doesn't switch something on, I don't know what will!

I don't know what makes the difference between a very good experience and a merely OK one, though. ENO's Magic Flute last week was OK, difficult to see anything wrong, but compared with the Glyndebourne MofF it just didn't feel in the same league. Maybe it wasn't just the performance though - perhaps MofF really is one of the best ever, even trumping other works by the same composer.

In my view, the Marriage of Figaro is the best ever. This is my personal view of course; but if I was asked to name the greatest opera ever written, this would be it. And I sometimes think - no, I often think - that it is perhaps the greatest work of art in any medium ever created. Why? Because the libretto and the music are brilliant from beginning to end; it is a great comedy, and immensely clever; but more importantly, because each character is a real person delineated with great clarity and with great sympathy. One feels that one knows them all intimately, and feels deeply for their concerns, from the main characters to the minor ones. Even for Barbarina, who has her little aria when she is desparate and searching for a lost pin; the music is so heartfelt that one feels deeply for her. And of course the culmination is the act of forgiveness by the Countess, which sets the seal on the whole, and leaves a warm-hearted feeling at the end of the opera.

This sense of the reality of the characters, and the sympathy with which they are portrayed, is certainly greater in Figaro than in any other of Mozart's operas. And I think, greater than in most operas by anyone else. That this can be done by the magic of music is simply a miracle.

[Dave2002]

The current Glyndebourne production is probably the best production of anything operatic I've ever seen. Maybe even the best of anything! There was a terrific ROH Aida in the 1970s though.

[David-G]

The current Glyndebourne production is probably the best production of anything operatic I've ever seen. Maybe even the best of anything! There was a terrific ROH Aida in the 1970s though.

I am glad you are so enthused with it! If your memories go back to the 1970s, this is praise indeed. I believe that was the Aida with Fiorenza Cossotto as Amneris. Unforgettable!

I must mention also the current Glyndebourne Tour production of "Rusalka". It is completely stunning. Highly recommended. I found myself thinking "Surely this is has to be the most beautiful opera ever written." The staging of this production befits the music perfectly.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne

If you get a chance to see the Glyndebourne Marriage of Figaro - currently touring with the touring company - the nearest it gets to you is I think Stoke - then I recommend you should try it. If that doesn't switch something on, I don't know what will!

I don't know what makes the difference between a very good experience and a merely OK one, though. ENO's Magic Flute last week was OK, difficult to see anything wrong, but compared with the Glyndebourne MofF it just didn't feel in the same league. Maybe it wasn't just the performance though - perhaps MofF really is one of the best ever, even trumping other works by the same composer.

I don't think that DVDs of opera are ever particularly good - though might be OK if you've seen a good performance and want a reminder. OTOH they may be more frustrating than worthwhile.

It's wonderful to read of such passions! But neither health nor finances permit travelling away from Liverpool just now.

So it's back to Holmboe (she says, feeling like a hedgehog snuffling through the damp autumn leaves...)

[Dave2002]

It's wonderful to read of such passions! But neither health nor finances permit travelling away from Liverpool just now.

So it's back to Holmboe (she says, feeling like a hedgehog snuffling through the damp autumn leaves...)

I hope you feel better soon. I'm sure there was a time when Glyndeboune Touring came to Liverpool - but maybe that was what might now be called prehistory! I feel that standards have risen over recent years, and the current MofF is outstanding. Encouraged by your enthusiasm I shall add Holmboe to my list of composers to try. I've done this before, but not done a thorough enough investigation to be persuaded to like his music.