Plebs 1 Toffs 0

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Read what carefully? It's not up to the government to report the audit results of the teachers' pension scheme, that should be in the hands of the pension scheme trustees who have a duty to report to the contributors annually.

This is a digression but as I understand it the teachers' pension scheme is changing to accommodate increased life expectancy and not surprisingly (well, at least not if you're in the private sector) contributions have to go up. If the pension fund has any surplus it will have to be calculated against its liabilities (i.e. future pension provision). The claim that the teachers' pension scheme is in surplus seems surprising given the fall in share prices recently. Most of the pensions schemes that I know of are in varying degrees of trouble.

[teamsaint]

Read what carefully? It's not up to the government to report the audit results of the teachers' pension scheme, that should be in the hands of the pension scheme trustees who have a duty to report to the contributors annually.

This is a digression but as I understand it the teachers' pension scheme is changing to accommodate increased life expectancy and not surprisingly (well, at least not if you're in the private sector) contributions have to go up. If the pension fund has any surplus it will have to be calculated against its liabilities (i.e. future pension provision). The claim that the teachers' pension scheme is in surplus seems surprising given the fall in share prices recently. Most of the pensions schemes that I know of are in varying degrees of trouble.

so you don't think that audited figures of public sector pension funds should be published by the government?
you think we should just believe what the government tell us?

The trials and tribulations of private pension funds are irrelevant to this discussion.
What is in question is the governments honesty.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Read what carefully? It's not up to the government to report the audit results of the teachers' pension scheme, that should be in the hands of the pension scheme trustees who have a duty to report to the contributors annually.

The TPS trustees don't exist. The government takes the money, spends it on other things, and gives and I.O.U. and then defaults on it.

This is a digression but as I understand it the teachers' pension scheme is changing to accommodate increased life expectancy and not surprisingly (well, at least not if you're in the private sector) contributions have to go up.

...which they did in 2006. Since then, the pot has increased, and there is no need whatever to increase contributions further. However, all parties agreed that the figures would be monitored - only if a shortfall was forecast would there be an further increase. The government has refused to publish the figures. I wonder why.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

The TPS trustees don't exist. The government takes the money, spends it on other things, and gives and I.O.U. and then defaults on it.

...which they did in 2006. Since then, the pot has increased, and there is no need whatever to increase contributions further. However, all parties agreed that the figures would be monitored - only if a shortfall was forecast would there be an further increase. The government has refused to publish the figures. I wonder why.

Well I wonder why as well?

In what sense has there been any default? Are teachers not getting their pensions? And I doubt very very much your pension scheme is in surplus - very few, if any, are. Contributions need to increase in most pension schemes because of increasing life expectancy, legally binding changes in pension financing regulations (esp. coverage, and this has changed since 2006), falling financial returns on shares and bonds, etc. If there's no audit report then quite simply there should be. And to run a pension scheme properly requires effort from both sides - the company and the employee, both of whom should ensure that there is a proper Pension Trust in place conducting annual audits and presenting reports. It sounds as if that's not the case, in which case, for their lack of engagement in the process, the teachers are fools.

[Flosshilde]

the teachers are fools.

Standard right-wing tactics - blame the victim.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Standard diversionary tactics from the lefties.

[Barbirollians]

All that sounds just motherhood and apple-pie, but then the police didn't arrest him nor did they charge him.

And then there's your throw-away phrase 'when the police record emerged' - any idea why it should emerge? We know how it emerged: the police sent their joint accounts (purely by coincidence of course) to the Sun. Happy with that?

As for the police statements being convincing, try the links in Ney Nonymous a few back (#66) . . .

Oh dear .

1 They warned him that unless he stopped abusing them he would be arrested

2 I am more than happy to accept that the police do not always tell the truth . I know that from my professional experience .The accounts in this case , however, have the ring of truth as the words they say he used are extremely unlikely for them to invent and by all accounts it now seems " pleb" is a word Mitchell was renowned for using

3 As for the leaking of the record - that happened only after Mr Mitchell denied it . Arguably , in the public interest for them to disclose them in those circumstances .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It sounds as if that's not the case, in which case, for their lack of engagement in the process, the teachers are fools.

It just shows how little you know about what is going on. There's certainly no lack of engagement on the teachers' part - just a refusal by the government to accept its legal duty to present figures. (If the figures did indeed confirm the government's position, you can guarantee that they would have presented them before anyone could have drawn breath.)

[teamsaint]

It just shows how little you know about what is going on. There's certainly no lack of engagement on the teachers' part - just a refusal by the government to accept its legal duty to present figures. (If the figures did indeed confirm the government's position, you can guarantee that they would have presented them before anyone could have drawn breath.)

Quite. I imagine the NUT and NASUWT have better things to do than point out this massive deception........

[ahinton]

Standard right-wing tactics - blame the victim.

To be fair, I don't think that he's actually "blaming" the teachers as such - and he is, after all, correct in stating in principle that "to run a pension scheme properly requires effort from both sides - the company and the employee, both[sic] of whom should ensure that there is a proper Pension Trust in place conducting annual audits and presenting report"; the problem, however, is more often than not that such co-operation is almost unachievable because each party will pursue its own vested interests at the expense of any other and, given the other pressurising issues that AIC has pointed out - those of increased longevity, poor market performance et al - it's perhaps no wonder, really. I have long thought that "pensions", however funded (or ill-funded) are already a thing of the past and to cling on to the notion that they are still possible is a good deal more foolish than those teachers as accused by AIC.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

. . . the problem, however, is more often than not that such co-operation is almost unachievable because each party will pursue its own vested interests at the expense of any other and, given the other pressurising issues that AIC has pointed out - those of increased longevity, poor market performance et al - it's perhaps no wonder, really. I have long thought that "pensions", however funded (or ill-funded) are already a thing of the past and to cling on to the notion that they are still possible is a good deal more foolish than those teachers as accused by AIC.

Pension Trusts are predominantly 'staffed' by employees with a low level of representation from the employer. Staff are appointed by ballot. The whole conduct of them is one of co-operation between the employees and employer. My experience of the one I'm in is that when a shortfall in funding was reported by the Trustees the emploer made large, lump-sum contributions to the fund to bring it back to an even keel. Pensions are not a thing of the past at all, but the private sector has faced up to the fact that with current market conditions they can no longer be based on final salary but will have to be based on contributions. They reach those conclusions based on reports provided by their appointed actuaries and pension fund advisiors (bodies appointed by the Trust, not the employer). Pensions will not be as generous as they were in the past, but will still be adequate.

I'm not surprised that there appears to be a conflict between the teachers and their employer. It's what they do all the time, no matter whether the government is left or right wing.

I love the line from teamsaint about the teachers' unions having better things to do than sort this mess out! That really says it all. And while we're on about teachers' unions, just why are there so many? One for the women, one for the men; one each for the English, Scots and Welsh; one each for primary schools, private schools, ordinary schools, universities. It's a laugh.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Oh dear .

1 They warned him that unless he stopped abusing them he would be arrested

2 I am more than happy to accept that the police do not always tell the truth . I know that from my professional experience .The accounts in this case , however, have the ring of truth as the words they say he used are extremely unlikely for them to invent and by all accounts it now seems " pleb" is a word Mitchell was renowned for using

3 As for the leaking of the record - that happened only after Mr Mitchell denied it . Arguably , in the public interest for them to disclose them in those circumstances .

Did you come down with the last shower?
He wasn't arrested. They then, between them, concocted a pack of lies which they released to the press because they wanted to attack the government over their pension cuts. They have form in these matters, it seems. And I'd rather the public interest wasn't manipulated by the likes of the police while they're the subject of so many enquiries into their integrity.

[teamsaint]

Pension Trusts are predominantly 'staffed' by employees with a low level of representation from the employer. Staff are appointed by ballot. The whole conduct of them is one of co-operation between the employees and employer. My experience of the one I'm in is that when a shortfall in funding was reported by the Trustees the emploer made large, lump-sum contributions to the fund to bring it back to an even keel. Pensions are not a thing of the past at all, but the private sector has faced up to the fact that with current market conditions they can no longer be based on final salary but will have to be based on contributions. They reach those conclusions based on reports provided by their appointed actuaries and pension fund advisiors (bodies appointed by the Trust, not the employer). Pensions will not be as generous as they were in the past, but will still be adequate.

I'm not surprised that there appears to be a conflict between the teachers and their employer. It's what they do all the time, no matter whether the government is left or right wing.

I love the line from teamsaint about the teachers' unions having better things to do than sort this mess out! That really says it all. And while we're on about teachers' unions, just why are there so many? One for the women, one for the men; one each for the English, Scots and Welsh; one each for primary schools, private schools, ordinary schools, universities. It's a laugh.

I thought that my line about the teachers unions was self evidently tongue in cheek. Its the teachers business why they have so many unions. I think its not a great idea, but then I'm not a teacher, and I am in a non unionised job...

The teachers unions agreed a few years ago, as has been pointed out, to major changes in their pension terms. New entrants for about 4 years now have a retirement age of 65 rather than 60, and contributions are on their way up substantially...from 6 to 9 % I think.
None of this addresses, in any case, the government deception around the issue.

[amateur51]

Did you come down with the last shower?
He wasn't arrested. They then, between them, concocted a pack of lies which they released to the press because they wanted to attack the government over their pension cuts. They have form in these matters, it seems. And I'd rather the public interest wasn't manipulated by the likes of the police while they're the subject of so many enquiries into their integrity.

I do wish you'd stop this silly tic of starting or finishing with a derogatory aside.Your posts can be quite thoughtful (like those of most other posters here) but the snidery is unattractive and distracts attention from the meat of your argument.

[John Shelton]

because they wanted to attack the government over their pension cuts. They have form in these matters, it seems.

I suspect a much simpler story is closer to the truth: he pissed them off but because he's an MP, obviously someone in authority, obviously upper middle to upper class, they didn't dare arrest him or go through the whole 'you don't talk to me like that I could nick you for obstructing the police you could get two years for that that's right isn't it Sarge yeah two years easy' routine so they got their own back via the press. Attributing much subtlety to the police isn't a good idea. Start basic and work down from there.