Plebs 1 Toffs 0

[teamsaint]

Dear sock puppet,



No, that's not the case. On the previous thread I raised the point that I thought the police had probably behaved like jobsworths. And at that point Mitchell hadn't resigned, so I thought that was quite sufficient. Or are you more pursuaded by number of posts (if so, you're doing very well!)?

An_Inspector_Calls



Like the police? They all told the truth. The exact same truth. At the exact same time. To the exact same newspaper. Now there's integrity for you.

If there was any worthwhile point to be answered in your posts , I would answer it.

As said before, its easy to dish out abuse, and return with questions rather than answers.
An awful lot of my posts are about music. Most of yours seem to be aimed at people(MB members) rather than issues.

And this time YOU have misinterpreted. I was quite clearly talking about political matters in general, but you misread it.
Surprising.

[kernelbogey]

I have long tended to be of the view that when the softly-spoken, 'butter-wouldn't-melt-in-my-mouth' Mz Pollee Toynbee expresses a view on anythiing, then it's a pretty safe bet that the exact opposite will almost certainly eventually prove to be very much closer to the actualité ...

My point in quoting Polly Toynbee was not to guruise her but because she quotes a source sympathetic to the government in corroboration of the 'pleb' quote:

According to the Daily Telegraph deputy editor, Benedict Brogan, Mitchell's fellow MPs believed it because they often heard him use the word in everyday conversation.

That seems to me a convincing argument that the police's story is in essence true.

[kernelbogey]

There are two good opinion pieces in today's Observer commenting on the significance of 'plebgate' within the current political climate:

One is by Toby Helm, Political Editor:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/20/plebgate-andrew-mitchell-osborne

The other byAndrew Rawnsley:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/21/andrew-rawnsley-tories-made-andrew-mitchell-go

Each suggests that Mitchell's resignation was due to failing support in his party and indeed in the whips' office. Together with Osborne's Friday train journey and the chaos around Cameron's statement on energy tarrifs, the Tories are looking very vulnerable.

Crucially, there is the further issue of the charge of incompetence, given some impetus by an article in the same paper by Norman Tebbit.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

kernelbogey

It's quite clear that the police have a victory here. The witch hunt they started against Mitchell, ably assisted by the media and Labour, has forced Mitchell to go. It's now of interst that the seed corn for this witch hunt may well have been illegal as well.

[kernelbogey]

Possibly true, AIC, but the articles in the Observer also suggest Mitchell himself defended himself incompetently. Sadly, the media are now used by all sides to manipulate the public and politicians.

[John Shelton]

It's now of interst that the seed corn for this witch hunt may well have been illegal as well.

Indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-18858116

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/14/police-evidence-muslim-student-rizwaan-sabir

[Barbirollians]

kernelbogey

It's quite clear that the police have a victory here. The witch hunt they started against Mitchell, ably assisted by the media and Labour, has forced Mitchell to go. It's now of interst that the seed corn for this witch hunt may well have been illegal as well.

What an extremely bizarre posting .

Until very recently someone who swore at the police was regarded as having committed a public order offence . A High Court decision last year suggested that the police heard swearing from suspects so much that it was highly unlikely that swearing alone would lead to alarm - yet a number of people continue to be arrested and charged .

Mr Mitchell admitted swearing but failed to say what he had said . He placed himself in an impossible position in that regard when the police record emerged suggesting he had used the word " pleb" . This made the police account sound much more convincing than that of Mr Mitchell it being rather more likely that he, a public school educated man from a privileged background brought up in the 1970s would use such a word than two younger police officers would invent it . He should have been dismissed immediately . I suggest Mr Cameron did not do so because he had decided he needed someone abrasive to keep his restive parliamentary party under control. That has backfired on him spectacularly as it is his party that has forced Mr Mitchell to go not the police , not the press and not the Labour Party though Ed Miliband was spot on when he said that Mr Mitchell was toast .

AS for the Great Train snobbery I find it rather odd that the ITV journalist got the facts so wrong as the Treasury and Virgin Trains now suggest . Of course some people might think that Virgin Trains having just managed to get the franchising process set aside and been granted an extension to run the line would now want to stay in with the Government - a view upon which i cannot possibly comment

[amateur51]

AS for the Great Train snobbery I find it rather odd that the ITV journalist got the facts so wrong as the Treasury and Virgin Trains now suggest . Of course some people might think that Virgin Trains having just managed to get the franchising process set aside and been granted an extension to run the line would now want to stay in with the Government - a view upon which i cannot possibly comment

[teamsaint]

Perhaps the direction that these incidents take depend(in part at least) on which lodge the people involved belong to...

[aeolium]

The other byAndrew Rawnsley:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ew-mitchell-go

kernelbogey, I liked the closing comment in that Rawnsley piece: "[George Young] is also a baronet and an alumnus of that posh training school near Slough. This must be the greatest of the ironies of "plebgate". The ultimate result is to increase the number of titled Old Etonians sitting round the cabinet table."

[mercia]

to be pedantic, Sir George Young attended cabinet until recently anyway, as Leader of the House & Lord Privy Seal

[aeolium]

to be pedantic, Sir George Young attended cabinet until recently anyway, as Leader of the House & Lord Privy Seal

Yes, though he had lost his cabinet job in the recent reshuffle in September.

[french frank]

In any case, I'm not sure that it matters exactly what words Mitchell used. He was stopped - possibly officiously - by a police constable. The wise thing to do was to dismount from his bicycle and use the Downing Street entrance which he had been instructed to use. And apologise, with whatever hard look and semi-smile he thought appropriate. In that situation there would have been no story.

Not knowing about these things, I wonder whether a Chief Whip with such a short fuse is a good thing or a bad thing.

[mercia]

Yes, though he had lost his cabinet job in the recent reshuffle in September.

yes, apologies I was trying to contradict the Rawnsley quote

when GY left the cabinet the number of Old Etonians decreased, now he's back presumably it's back to what it was

[unless I've missed something somewhere]

[mercia]

a Chief Whip with such a short fuse

hadn't he had a bad day or something ?

"we all have bad days" , "heat of the moment" etc. etc. etc.