Plebs 1 Toffs 0

[Barbirollians]

No more than your absurd flight of phantasy.

My understanding of the situation is supported by the evidence and is why he resigned . Yours is a conspiracy theory based on no evidence at all.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

ahinton #121

I don't accept your pessimism for the future of pension schemes. I've seen my own pension scheme in difficulties (esp. at the bottom of the crash) and that's had the effect of removing the concept of final salary (for new entrants), and a slight rise in the retirement age (albeit early retirement is still possible but with derogation) . But that's all; the scheme has survived partly because everyone behaved realistically and sensibly, ably helped by the professional advisors to the scheme. There was no rush to strike, or damn the employer.

It is anticipated that conditions will ease as share and bond yields recover. The employers played their part, recognized the need for a viable and solid pension scheme to attract capable new employees.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm not surprised that there appears to be a conflict between the teachers and their employer. It's what they do all the time, no matter whether the government is left or right wing.

That's right - if you don't know the facts, make it up.

That really says it all. And while we're on about teachers' unions, just why are there so many? One for the women, one for the men; one each for the English, Scots and Welsh; one each for primary schools, private schools, ordinary schools, universities. It's a laugh.

Ditto.

In fact there are two main ones - the NUT and the NASUWT, both now working together. There are others, but these represent only a small proportion of the profession. As for the primary/secondary and men/women divides, you really are living in a different era.

[ahinton]

Yes. I suspect though that all the questions you're asking are more in the nature of attention-seeking strategies than genuine enquiries, since, as you must know, Teamsaint and I are using the definition of class developed by Marx and the tradition following his work, and if you were really interested in knowing the details there are many readily-accessible places and publications where you could find out all you would need to know in order not to have to pose the questions you do. If you had any real interest in doing so.

Of course I know only too well the source of the definition that you are using; that, however, is not the point, since the mere fact of its origins does not and cannot be expected (other, perhaps, than by the most die-hard of Marxist fundamentalists) to exempt it from the possibility of realistic challenge of the grounds of relevance in a 21st century British context. I accept, of course, that you believe that this definition remains as relevant to present-day British society as it was in the context in which it was originally hatched, but that is simply something on which you and I happen to disagree; it's not for want of understanding or recognition of your terms of reference, so there's no need for me to do what you imply.

The questions that I asked (few as they were and are) were and are wholly genuine and sincere, the only "attention" sought in their asking being to the questions themselves. If we confine ourselves for the moment to the one that I have repeatedly asked, namely what you might envisage as a viable replacement repository for the investments of company and private pension contributions and the grounds upon which you might assume such a replacement strategy to be capable of providing all future pensioners the guarantee of decent pensions in retirement for life from the growth on their investments therein over time, all that I notice so far is that you have avoided answering it! You don't have to answer it, of course, but if you do have an answer and have no objection in principle to providing it, I would very much like to hear it out of genuine interest.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

My understanding of the situation is supported by the evidence and is why he resigned . Yours is a conspiracy theory based on no evidence at all.

You seem to have focussed on the reasons for his resignation, which I have taken as a given throughout. It's not the issue of interest. What he said is of no interest to me. Swearing at the police is not an offence, and the use of the pleb word (or not) is simply of no consequence to me and probably everyone else. What does matter is that there was a sustained, vitriollic campaign against Mitchell fuelled by the police, and the evidence for that is copious. I find that unacceptable behaviour. It's not what the police are supposed to do. The issue needs investigating, we need to know who leaked, and who managed the leak.

You don't have evidence as to what Mitchell said, merely conjecture based on the police accounts which you're choosing to trust.

"I am more than happy to accept that the police do not always tell the truth . I know that from my professional experience .The accounts in this case , however, have the ring of truth as the words they say he used are extremely unlikely for them to invent and by all accounts it now seems " pleb" is a word Mitchell was renowned for using "

Give their past and present form in such matters, I find your trust somewhat quaint.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

That's right - if you don't know the facts, make it up.



Ditto.

In fact there are two main ones - the NUT and the NASUWT, both now working together. There are others, but these represent only a small proportion of the profession. As for the primary/secondary and men/women divides, you really are living in a different era.

Try watching the news coverage of the next union congress and see how long it takes for the first utterance of the word 'strike'.

Here's a little list of the teaching unions:

http://www.kent-teach.com/Content.aspx?ContentID=5

Oh, and here's another one in Scotland (striking - no surprise):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19608128

I'm amazed you describe it as a profession. They've long since given up any attempt to behave as if they were such (except the university teachers).

[ahinton]

ahinton #121

I don't accept your pessimism for the future of pension schemes. I've seen my own pension scheme in difficulties (esp. at the bottom of the crash) and that's had the effect of removing the concept of final salary (for new entrants), and a slight rise in the retirement age (albeit early retirement is still possible but with derogation) . But that's all; the scheme has survived partly because everyone behaved realistically and sensibly, ably helped by the professional advisors to the scheme. There was no rush to strike, or damn the employer.

That's your prerogative, of course - and, who knows, maybe your employers' one might suffer less badly than some others - but there's no stopping the onward march of increased longevity and no guaranteed way to control the markets or the competence (or sheer luck!) of those investing pension contributions in the market place, which is the reason for what I would call my realism and you regard as my pessimism on the subject. I hope that you don't lose out with yours.

By the way, just to jog a fragment of your memory, a pension trustee that I know recently told me an amusing story about a new one that was about to join the board of trustees on which he served and the raised eyebrows to which this momentarily gave rise on account of the fact that the new boy on the block happens to go by the arguably unfortunate name Robert Maxwell...

It is anticipated that conditions will ease as share and bond yields recover. The employers played their part, recognized the need for a viable and solid pension scheme to attract capable new employees.[/QUOTE]

[John Shelton]

there's no stopping the onward march of increased longevity

Cheer up ahinton - maybe a mutant version of the Black Death will wipe out all the burdens leaving only rich people and Sorabji enthusiasts and the pension trustee you know. How good would that be ?

Speaking of special interests subverting government (as with the police and Mr Mitchell) "142 Lords who voted on Health and Social Care Act have links to private healthcare companies" http://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/news...nies_1_1665239

It's OK, though, because they had all registered their interests. Which means they can then cheerfully further them! What ho! One in the eye for the plebs, what?

[teamsaint]

Try watching the news coverage of the next union congress and see how long it takes for the first utterance of the word 'strike'.

Here's a little list of the teaching unions:

http://www.kent-teach.com/Content.aspx?ContentID=5

Oh, and here's another one in Scotland (striking - no surprise):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19608128

I'm amazed you describe it as a profession. They've long since given up any attempt to behave as if they were such (except the university teachers).

Profession is a word you can use any way you like. teachers very, very seldom strike, and are mostly a dedicated, hard working and very skilled group of people.many of them do an incredible job in exceptionally challenging conditions.

Do you know something nobody else does?

[mangerton]

Here's a little list of the teaching unions:


Oh, and here's another one in Scotland (striking - no surprise):

There's nothing about striking in that article. Seeking talks seems rather the opposite to me.

I can think of a very good reason why Scotland should have its own teaching unions. It may come as a surprise to you, but Scotland has its own (arguably superior) education system.

I'm amazed you describe it as a profession. They've long since given up any attempt to behave as if they were such (except the university teachers).

If this is true, it is probably because they have long since (thirty plus years) stopped being treated as one.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not, and have never been, a teacher.

[eighthobstruction]

>>>>For the avoidance of doubt, I am not, and have never been, a teacher<<<<....and someone isn't J. B. Priestley....

[Barbirollians]

And most certainly not a socialist !

[heliocentric]

Try watching the news coverage of the next union congress and see how long it takes for the first utterance of the word 'strike'.

Not very long I hope.

[Flosshilde]

I am surprised they weren't on a grassy knoll at the time . A fantasy conspiracy theory of such absurdity that one might believe you were a Daily Express journalist .

Actually, I'm beginning to wonder if he's Beef Oven in diguise. His posts are very similar.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not, and have never been, a teacher.

In that case I must declare an interest - 39 years of teaching, and hopefully a few more.