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  • hmvman
    Full Member
    • Mar 2007
    • 1130

    Originally posted by JFLL View Post
    I was wondering what British steam locomotive boarders thought was the most aesthetically pleasing (of any period). I think mine would be the GWR Churchward ‘Stars’. What a pity only one was preserved, and that not in running order, though it does seem to be wheeled out from time to time:



    From an earlier period, the Dean Singles of the GWR:



    or the Johnson Singles of the Midland Railway:

    http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emgeedee/johnsons.htm

    Any thoughts?
    I would agree with you about Dean's GWR 'Singles'. The 'Stars' were also fine but I think the 'Castles' were the most aesthetically pleasing of the GWR 4-6-0 designs.

    My other nominations would be Stirling's 'Eight Foot' Singles for the GNR, McIntosh's 'Dunalastair' 4-4-0s for the Caledonian and Drummond's T9 4-4-0s for the LSWR. I would also say that Gresley's A4s in their original condition with wheel valances and in the garter blue livery were some of the most beautiful machines that man has ever produced!

    Comment

    • gurnemanz
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 7419

      This thread has jogged ancient memories of when I used to travel to Clapham Junction every day to school. Aged 11 and short-trousered I was an obsessive trainspotter for about a year. It was more or less obligatory. The school was perched on a site with a view on either side over the two main lines from Waterloo and Victoria, both of which had steam locomotives. If you got a seat next to the window you could indulge in surreptitious spotting during slack moments in French lessons.

      Comment

      • JFLL
        Full Member
        • Jan 2011
        • 780

        I’ve just seen that there are two programmes later this evening which may be of interest.

        BBC2 10.00 Going Underground: a Culture Show Special. "In celebration of the 150th anniversary of London Underground, Alastair Sooke presents a cultural history of the oldest tube network in the world. He follows the progress of a major new artwork for all 270 stations by the leading contemporary artist Mark Wallinger, and shows that art has played an absolutely central role in the identity of the tube. Through posters by some of the finest artists of the day, the system became the people's gallery. Through architecture, and design, its typeface and its branding, it became the image of modernity. Alastair uncovers the story of a relatively unsung hero*, Frank Pick, whose 32 years running the Underground shaped London and Londoners more than anyone since Sir Christopher Wren."

        [*Actually, I remember Frank Pick being sung quite recently in the Art Deco series.]

        and

        Radio 3 10.45. The Essay: The Sound and the Fury [another one!]. 3/5. "Andrew Martin recalls his boyhood enjoyment of rail travel" [a repeat].

        Comment

        • Gordon
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 1425

          Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
          This thread has jogged ancient memories of when I used to travel to Clapham Junction every day to school. Aged 11 and short-trousered I was an obsessive trainspotter for about a year. It was more or less obligatory. The school was perched on a site with a view on either side over the two main lines from Waterloo and Victoria, both of which had steam locomotives. If you got a seat next to the window you could indulge in surreptitious spotting during slack moments in French lessons.
          So you saw those Bulleids then!! Both original and rebuilt. I preferred the looks of the rebuilt ones, more balanced look compared to the spam can shape that never really appealed however innovative. I suppose that you also saw a few of the Lord Nelsons too? They were elegant but I wouldn't say they were the top of the heap for looks. From the big enegines I'd select the Castles and Kings because their proportions seem just right and the inside valve gear got rid of some external clutter too. Never did take to the LNER looks, even the Scotsman and A4s.

          Comment

          • gurnemanz
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 7419

            Originally posted by Gordon View Post
            So you saw those Bulleids then!! Both original and rebuilt. I preferred the looks of the rebuilt ones, more balanced look compared to the spam can shape that never really appealed however innovative. I suppose that you also saw a few of the Lord Nelsons too? They were elegant but I wouldn't say they were the top of the heap for looks. From the big enegines I'd select the Castles and Kings because their proportions seem just right and the inside valve gear got rid of some external clutter too. Never did take to the LNER looks, even the Scotsman and A4s.
            I'm afraid I am a bit of dilettante in this company and had never heard of Bulleid. Having put him into Google I now know a little more. A formidable chap, it seems. My spotter's book is long gone, alas, so I shall never be able to recall exactly which locomotives I saw. I can certainly remember named engines in the Schools class (Repton sticks in my mind for some reason), also West Country and Battle of Britain. I used to travel the Brighton line to Coulsdon South on rather boring electric commuter trains but sometimes I got on a steam-hauled train heading for Tunbridge Wells.

            (PS Not really something to admit publicly, but I must have been quite an anorak, because I also spotted buses and still have a very dog-eared book to prove it)

            Comment

            • LeMartinPecheur
              Full Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 4717

              I started grammar school in Winchester in 1965. My school was (still is, tho' it's now a 6th-form college) just a few minutes' walk away from the SR main line just north of the station. It was usually possible to catch the MN-hauled down Bournemouth Belle just before the end of lunch-break. It was strictly against school rules for one who took school lunch so to do (leaving school grounds was the offence, rather than train-spotting as such), but do it I did, frequently (Was occasionally in a bit of trouble for being late for registration at 1.55pm, but any detentions I incurred were taken without complaint, and of course without divulging the real reason and the greater sin of leaving school grounds otherwise than to visit the school 'tuck-shop', actually a very adjacent Post Office Stores.)

              Plenty of opportunity then to see 'Spamcan' BBs and WCs on lesser trains as well as plenty of the rebuilds; and in the late afternoon, after school had ended, there was a down train from WR (via Reading and Basingstoke presumably) usually behind a 'Hall'. I recall hanging on to see it late on a winter's afternoon. By the time it got in it was far too dark to see the loco's number One of my most vivid train-spotting memories...

              Saw a Spamcan at speed down here in Cornwall a couple of years ago, an unrebuilt BB (one of the 'Squadrons', can't recall the number), double-heading a steam railtour with 'Britannia' 70018, Oliver Cromwell. The latter of course not, with all due respect to Benjamin Britten, lying 'buried and dead, buried and dead' A glorious and evocative sight and sound as they sped across a GWR viaduct near Chacewater. AND I was sorta playing truant from work which added to the thrill - this time technically a 'Core Time Violation' cos the train was very late leaving Penzance (Nice that that icon is called 'steam' eh?) And once again I avoided detention...
              Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 07-03-13, 23:46.
              I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

              Comment

              • JFLL
                Full Member
                • Jan 2011
                • 780

                Originally posted by hmvman View Post
                I would agree with you about Dean's GWR 'Singles'. The 'Stars' were also fine but I think the 'Castles' were the most aesthetically pleasing of the GWR 4-6-0 designs.

                My other nominations would be Stirling's 'Eight Foot' Singles for the GNR, McIntosh's 'Dunalastair' 4-4-0s for the Caledonian and Drummond's T9 4-4-0s for the LSWR. I would also say that Gresley's A4s in their original condition with wheel valances and in the garter blue livery were some of the most beautiful machines that man has ever produced!
                Excellent choices, hmvman! What I like about the 'Stars' is their 'lean and hungry' look as compared with the Castles and Kings (also the fact that they were so revolutionary, and twenty years ahead of their time). I only ever saw one in service, 'Glastonbury Abbey', but that had been so modified by that time (the mid-50s) that it looked very much like a Castle.

                Comment

                • Gordon
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 1425

                  Originally posted by JFLL View Post
                  Excellent choices, hmvman! What I like about the 'Stars' is their 'lean and hungry' look as compared with the Castles and Kings (also the fact that they were so revolutionary, and twenty years ahead of their time). I only ever saw one in service, 'Glastonbury Abbey', but that had been so modified by that time (the mid-50s) that it looked very much like a Castle.
                  Well, weren't the Castles actually advanced versions of Stars anyway? And they themselves were developed from the Saints before them. I think that the Castles had an almost feminine, graceful look about them! But, like some women I can think of, packed a punch.

                  Like most things engineering one thing develops from a predecessor in steady steps of improvement which is what the GWR did mostly. Then you get the Bulleids.... who like to experiment!! Mind you those Stanier pacifics were awesome beasts too but pretty? Not really, more butch!!

                  Comment

                  • Gordon
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 1425

                    Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                    I started grammar school in Winchester in 1965. My school was (still is, tho' it's now a 6th-form college) just a few minutes' walk away from the SR main line just north of the station. It was usually possible to catch the MN-hauled down Bournemouth Belle just before the end of lunch-break. It was strictly against school rules for one who took school lunch so to do (leaving school grounds was the offence, rather than train-spotting as such), but do it I did, frequently (Was occasionally in a bit of trouble for being late for registration at 1.55pm, but any detentions I incurred were taken without complaint, and of course without divulging the real reason and the greater sin of leaving school grounds otherwise than to visit the school 'tuck-shop', actually a very adjacent Post Office Stores.)

                    Plenty of opportunity then to see 'Spamcan' BBs and WCs on lesser trains as well as plenty of the rebuilds; and in the late afternoon, after school had ended, there was a down train from WR (via Reading and Basingstoke presumably) usually behind a 'Hall'. I recall hanging on to see it late on a winter's afternoon. By the time it got in it was far too dark to see the loco's number One of my most vivid train-spotting memories...

                    Saw a Spamcan at speed down here in Cornwall a couple of years ago, an unrebuilt BB (one of the 'Squadrons', can't recall the number), double-heading a steam railtour with 'Britannia' 70018, Oliver Cromwell. The latter of course not, with all due respect to Benjamin Britten, lying 'buried and dead, buried and dead' A glorious and evocative sight and sound as they sped across a GWR viaduct near Chacewater. AND I was sorta playing truant from work which added to the thrill - this time technically a 'Core Time Violation' cos the train was very late leaving Penzance (Nice that that icon is called 'steam' eh?) And once again I avoided detention...
                    I used to work in Winchester [Peter Simmons is the 6th form college still there] and once waiting for an electric [slam doors!!] one afternoon to go to a meeting in London we were champing at the bit as the train was late. Then an announcement, "please stand clear the next train will not stop". What, we thought, then a flurry of hissing and steaming Clan Line came through at a healthy rate of knots [as befits a loco named for a shipping line], whistle going and blowing off its full boiler. We forgot we were late after that! Our electric passed the train later somewhere east of Basingstoke.

                    Those WR Halls you saw and othr GWR types would have been visitors at the other Winchester Chesil station too as it was a WR line over there, a part of the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton whose line to the N through here is now under the A34 and the Newbury bypass. A bit further to get across town in a lunch break!! The Shawford viaduct [where the SR and WR joined S of the city] has recently been refurbished and is now a cycle track.

                    Comment

                    • LeMartinPecheur
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 4717

                      Originally posted by Gordon View Post
                      I used to work in Winchester [Peter Simmons is the 6th form college still there] and once waiting for an electric [slam doors!!] one afternoon to go to a meeting in London we were champing at the bit as the train was late. Then an announcement, "please stand clear the next train will not stop". What, we thought, then a flurry of hissing and steaming Clan Line came through at a healthy rate of knots [as befits a loco named for a shipping line], whistle going and blowing off its full boiler. We forgot we were late after that! Our electric passed the train later somewhere east of Basingstoke.

                      Those WR Halls you saw and othr GWR types would have been visitors at the other Winchester Chesil station too as it was a WR line over there, a part of the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton whose line to the N through here is now under the A34 and the Newbury bypass. A bit further to get across town in a lunch break!! The Shawford viaduct [where the SR and WR joined S of the city] has recently been refurbished and is now a cycle track.
                      Gordon: 1) Peter Symonds, if you please! 2) Clan Line, ah yes! Though my favourite MN was probably Ellerman Lines, 35029, one after Clan Line, because she pulled us up to Waterloo on my first Peter Pips Rly Soc outing 3) Winchester Chesil, oh no, no, no! That was long closed even in '65, and in any case the whole point of it was that it was the sad end of the GWR's attempt to reach Southampton for the Cunard liner rail traffic. Their Didcot, Newbury & So'ton (DNS) line got down through D & N OK, but couldn't buy land to get through to S and therefore was obliged to settle ignominiously for running powers over the LSW from Shawford Junction southward, and of course the LSW made quite sure it stayed a little branch line with no big boat trains. Any train down from D or N wouldn't have reversed up to the LSW/ SR main winchester station anyway - Winchester travellers would have got off at Chesil and the train then went straight on towards So'ton on LSW lines. My Hall-headed train came down from Basingstoke and must I'm pretty sure have got there from Reading and true-GW country beyond via the ex-GWR link through to Basingstoke via Mortimer and Bramley, AFAIK still functioning.

                      I recall walking through the tunnel slap by Winchester Chesil station: I think it had a considerable period as a mushroom farm!

                      EDIT Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didcot,...ampton_Railway says the DNS around Winchester closed c1960 for passengers and before 1965 for freight, so clearly I didn't miss any live action on it after arriving in Winchester in Aug 1965 - Phew!

                      EDIT PS: not sure whether the DNS would have taken the weight of a Hall anyway. The main motive power I've seen in pictures is clapped-out Duke 4-4-0s prewar and latterly Collett 22xx 0-6-0 tender locos. But the best days of the DNS were c1944 when it was important for supplying D-Day troops and arms as invasion forces sailing from Southampton Water or Pompey. This traffic led to the construction of passing loops N of Winchester and extra signal boxes, built by Italian PoWs. I recall looking at remains of the latter c 1972: the brickwork was quite phenomenally appalling Possibly heavier loco's like Halls could have been used, but photographic evidence of this traffic is scarce, for obvious reasons I suspect!
                      Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 08-03-13, 22:24.
                      I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

                      Comment

                      • Gordon
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 1425

                        Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                        Gordon: 1) Peter Symonds, if you please! 2) Clan Line, ah yes! Though my favourite MN was probably Ellerman Lines, 35029, one after Clan Line, because she pulled us up to Waterloo on my first Peter Pips Rly Soc outing 3) Winchester Chesil, oh no, no, no! That was long closed even in '65, and in any case the whole point of it was that it was the sad end of the GWR's attempt to reach Southampton for the Cunard liner rail traffic. Their Didcot, Newbury & So'ton (DNS) line got down through D & N OK, but couldn't buy land to get through to S and therefore was obliged to settle ignominiously for running powers over the LSW from Shawford Junction southward, and of course the LSW made quite sure it stayed a little branch line with no big boat trains. Any train down from D or N wouldn't have reversed up to the LSW/ SR main winchester station anyway - Winchester travellers would have got off at Chesil and the train then went straight on towards So'ton on LSW lines. My Hall-headed train came down from Basingstoke and must I'm pretty sure have got there from Reading and true-GW country beyond via the ex-GWR link through to Basingstoke via Mortimer and Bramley, AFAIK still functioning.

                        I recall walking through the tunnel slap by Winchester Chesil station: I think it had a considerable period as a mushroom farm!

                        EDIT Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didcot,...ampton_Railway says the DNS around Winchester closed c1960 for passengers and before 1965 for freight, so clearly I didn't miss any live action on it after arriving in Winchester in Aug 1965 - Phew!

                        EDIT PS: not sure whether the DNS would have taken the weight of a Hall anyway. The main motive power I've seen in pictures is clapped-out Duke 4-4-0s prewar and latterly Collett 22xx 0-6-0 tender locos. But the best days of the DNS were c1944 when it was important for supplying D-Day troops and arms as invasion forces sailing from Southampton Water or Pompey. This traffic led to the construction of passing loops N of Winchester and extra signal boxes, built by Italian PoWs. I recall looking at remains of the latter c 1972: the brickwork was quite phenomenally appalling Possibly heavier loco's like Halls could have been used, but photographic evidence of this traffic is scarce, for obvious reasons I suspect!
                        Mea culpa, my spelling of Symonds was incorrect. Should know better!! My kids went to Queen Mary's at Basingstoke but kids from here do go to P Symonds too.

                        I have Kevin Robertson's book on the DN&S so must look up for some photos and perhaps data regarding loading gauge etc . I did not realise that the DN&S had closed so soon. The Chesil station site is a multistorey car park now and the tunnel used to be used by a rifle club. The route was almost all single track with the WW2 additions you mention. You are probably right about the civils not being good enough for the weight of heavy engines, even so during WW2 some big trains went across it, hence the lengthened passing sidings, that would have needed some hefty pulling power.

                        MN Ellerman Lines is now sectioned as an exhibit showing its internal workings at the NRM!!

                        The cross country services to the South Coast still use that GWR Reading/Basingstoke Hants & Berks extension built to broad gauge. It also carries a shuttle between the two towns and it carries a lot of freight mostly with 66s on the front which is increasing and the routes from the docks to Basingstoke via both Winchester and via Salisbury and here have recently been upgraded to the latest freight gauge, lots of new bridges.

                        EDIT: See here for details, go well down the page to "Operation and Stock". Halls did go on the line before WW2 BUT were out of gauge - scraped platforms!!! Also note speed limits afterwards!! Interesting map of the proposed route that was approved but some sections never built.

                        GWR Modelling provides links, notes, galleries and inspiration for modellers of the Great Western Railway in Britain
                        Last edited by Gordon; 09-03-13, 00:30.

                        Comment

                        • LeMartinPecheur
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 4717

                          Originally posted by Gordon View Post
                          My kids went to Queen Mary's at Basingstoke but kids from here do go to P Symonds too.
                          Aha, something to link us here with 'proper' R3 stuff. I lived in and around B'stoke 1977 to 2001 and almost without fail attended QMC for the winter chamber music series run by Basingstoke Concert Club. Indeed, after the Anvil opened and it left QMC and nearly died, I went onto its committee fairly actively, on A&R and stage-shifting, when it moved out of the Anvil to Sarum Hill Baptist Church. Sadly, I've just heard that it finally died at the end of its 2011-2 series Many unforgettable memories - lots of Curzon and Brendel (we had a rich patron who adored AB and was happy to pay the extra to get him over). Dearest memory (shared with my wife, whose musical tastes are often different from mine) was a recital by Alfred Deller and the Deller Consort a matter of weeks before he died.

                          MN Ellerman Lines is now sectioned as an exhibit showing its internal workings at the NRM!!
                          Yep, seen it there. A bit sad, but better than its having been melted down completely I suppose.

                          The cross country services to the South Coast still use that GWR Reading/Basingstoke Hants & Berks extension built to broad gauge.
                          The big gaps between tracks on many ex-GW-broad-gauge main lines still amuse me, but they're specially amusing on a poxy little connecting line like Reading-B'stoke. Still, they do IMO give a proper feeling of regal spaciousness to many otherwise insignificant country stations on God's Wonderful Railway! A pity it wasn't possible to use these gaps for wider standard-gauge trains. Could have built trains that stuck out on the side away from platforms Not quite as totally daft an idea as it may sound: I seem to recall that bullion vans had doors just on one side, and they were marshalled so the doors were NOT on the platform side when they had bullion aboard. Wee bit of a problem though - for bullion vans and my new asymmetrical rolling stock - if a train gets diverted round a triangle!
                          Last edited by LeMartinPecheur; 09-03-13, 11:07.
                          I keep hitting the Escape key, but I'm still here!

                          Comment

                          • Gordon
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 1425

                            Originally posted by LeMartinPecheur View Post
                            ...The big gaps between tracks on many ex-GW-broad-gauge main lines still amuse me, but they're specially amusing on a poxy little connecting line like Reading-B'stoke. Still, they do IMO give a proper feeling of regal spaciousness to many otherwise insignificant country stations on God's Wonderful Railway! A pity it wasn't possible to use these gaps for wider standard-gauge trains. Could have built trains that stuck out on the side away from platforms Not quite as totally daft an idea as it may sound: I seem to recall that bullion vans had doors just on one side, and they were marshalled so the doors were NOT on the platform side when they had bullion aboard. Wee bit of a problem though - for bullion vans and my new asymmetrical rolling stock - if a train gets diverted round a triangle!
                            The Japanese used your idea for their Tokaido line bullet trains which ran on standard gauge track but the loading gauge was wider than ours. There was one driving carriage exhibited at NRM last time I was there and then that fact was apparent.

                            Comment

                            • gamba
                              Late member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 575

                              Am intrigued to discover ' Giants of Steam ' now available with ' Coronation Scot ' being sold as ' Awesome Giants of Steam ' for 1d. upwards. I'm getting one of my sons to give me this as a birthday present, only a more expensive version & in better condition, costing 2d. from Amazon. The ' Flying Scotsman ' film sent me searching the web for ' Giants of Steam ' & sure enough there it was, filmed in 1963. A bit of a ' cock up ' in some reports re.credits. It was in fact a BBC Scotland production, not British Transport Films. The director was John Read, a very talented ' Monitor ' person renowned for his films on artists & I was responsible for the camerawork, a most pleasurable experience. I've never seen a foot of it since sending the film off for processing, 50 years ago ! What a delightful present awaits me !
                              A minor annoyance is having one's name spelt wrongly in the credits, however that's a small matter. Although 50 years does seem a long time to wait to see if one's 'snaps' have turned out alright !

                              Comment

                              • salymap
                                Late member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 5969

                                Originally posted by gamba View Post
                                Am intrigued to discover ' Giants of Steam ' now available with ' Coronation Scot ' being sold as ' Awesome Giants of Steam ' for 1d. upwards. I'm getting one of my sons to give me this as a birthday present, only a more expensive version & in better condition, costing 2d. from Amazon. The ' Flying Scotsman ' film sent me searching the web for ' Giants of Steam ' & sure enough there it was, filmed in 1963. A bit of a ' cock up ' in some reports re.credits. It was in fact a BBC Scotland production, not British Transport Films. The director was John Read, a very talented ' Monitor ' person renowned for his films on artists & I was responsible for the camerawork, a most pleasurable experience. I've never seen a foot of it since sending the film off for processing, 50 years ago ! What a delightful present awaits me !
                                A minor annoyance is having one's name spelt wrongly in the credits, however that's a small matter. Although 50 years does seem a long time to wait to see if one's 'snaps' have turned out alright !
                                Congratulations on that gamba, and many good wishes for the big day on Friday.

                                salymap

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