George Whitmore Has Died - George Who?

[Pabmusic]

...Faint possibilty, perhaps, in many cases; but civilization rests on many such faint hopes - I believe that we need to be better than those who commit atrocities, not join them.

Superb. I have met a few life-sentence prisoners who said they'd have preferred execution to the life they now lead.

[Pabmusic]

Currently available at Wetherspoons Baker St at a fair £3 i think - very citrussy intially then spectacularly bitter & thirst-quenching & moreish

Does the reach of Wetherspoons' empire extend to Capiz? (he asks remembering just in time )

I wish.

[amateur51]

I wish.

Next time you're on these shores then Pabs, we'll assemble at Baker St.for a tasting

[mercia]

a former acquaintance of mine, who had lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for a number of years, was convinced that the threat of severe punishment was a deterrent to committing crime. She gave as an example jewellers shops in that country, where she said there was no need for a shopkeeper to lock away valuable items or have elaborate security because it was generally understood that a thief would have his hand chopped off, thus no-one was ever tempted.

[amateur51]

a former acquaintance of mine, who had lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for a number of years, was convinced that the threat of severe punishment was a deterrent to committing crime. She gave as an example jewellers shops in that country, where she said there was no need for a shopkeeper to lock away valuable items or have elaborate security because it was generally understood that a thief would have his hand chopped off, thus no-one was ever tempted.

Like capital punishment, can you be sure you've got the right person? I'd want to know the rate of offending, re-offending, and what happens to one-handed and no-handed people subsequently, i.e., do they become destitute as a result?

[scottycelt]

I dont think I'm very far removed from ferney's well-argued and considered opinion on the matter. I understand and respect his stated position completely. I go along with the danger that the use of capital punishment can send a signal that the State is on a similar moral ground to the perpretator, even though I think that particular charge is highly contestible. Capital punishment also strikes me as somewhat contradicting the Christian idea of 'redemption'. Then again, if the only way to reduce child-murder and sex-murders in general were to introduce it then it might well be the lesser of evils to do so? Not a happy choice, but a possibly real and stark choice, nonetheless. There can be unthinking knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the argument?

Here we have the basic difference ... one is morally against it (death-penalty) in any circumstances, the other is currently against it, but is not quite prepared to go that far. This has certain similarities with the arguments over war and whether taking an outright pacifist approach is morally superior to killing a fellow human-being even in what is considered by most to be a just cause . Difficult, difficult questions which have divided decent people since the beginning.

However, I remain opposed to the idea of capital punishment mainly because there is no evidence that ii would work and therefore I consider it could be the greater evil, even before the dreadful likelihood of wrongful convictions are also taken into account. It is also true, as already has been suggested, that some convicted killers are on record as saying they would prefer to be executed than face a lifetime in jail.

One might say when it comes to the death-penalty for certain horrific crimes I might consider myself to be an 'atheist' possibly bordering on the 'agnostic' ... and, in truth, maybe even an amoralist.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Then again, if the only way to reduce child-murder and sex-murders in general were to introduce it then it might well be the lesser of evils to do so?

I think the key word here is "if", scotty; I'm not at all sure the prospect of a death penalty is any kind of deterrent to the kind of psychopath who commits such unspeakably horrendous crimes; the "moral bypass" of their personalities makes them impervious to any such considerations. You're absolutely right: these are uncomfortably difficult cases to contemplate, and very different from the case of Mr Whitmore where the state was very clearly very wrong.

[scottycelt]

I think the key word here is "if", scotty; I'm not at all sure the prospect of a death penalty is any kind of deterrent to the kind of psychopath who commits such unspeakably horrendous crimes; the "moral bypass" of their personalities makes them impervious to any such considerations. You're absolutely right: these are uncomfortably difficult cases to contemplate, and very different from the case of Mr Whitmore where the state was very clearly very wrong.

I agree with all of that!

[Pabmusic]

Next time you're on these shores then Pabs, we'll assemble at Baker St.for a tasting

You can take it as read that Mrs Pab will want to spend a few days in London, so I can happily say "bring it on!"

[Pabmusic]

...However, I remain opposed to the idea of capital punishment mainly because there is no evidence that ii would work and therefore I consider it could be the greater evil, even before the dreadful likelihood of wrongful convictions are also taken into account. It is also true, as already has been suggested, that some convicted killers are on record as saying they would prefer to be executed than face a lifetime in jail...

How I agree entirely with this. People don't generally realise how unusual capital punishment is. Of the approximately 200 countries on the planet, the death penalty is retained in 92, although 34 of those have not used it for at least 10 years, leaving 58 'active' countries. Executions are known to have taken place in 21 countries in 2011: China (perhaps 4,000), Iran (at least 360), Saudi Arabia (at least 82), Iraq (at least 68), USA (43), Yemen (at least 41), North Korea (at least 30). Somalia (10), Sudan (at least 7), Bangladesh (at least 5), Vietnam (at least 5), South Sudan (5), Taiwan (5), Singapore (4), Palestinian Authority (3), Afghanistan (2), Belarus (2), Egypt (2), UAE (1), Malaysia and Syria (numbers unknown).

None of these, with the (possible) exception of the USA, is a country we look to for guidance on how to organise society. I do not wish to be lumped with them over capital punishment. Nor is there any evidence that their societies are safer, or more desirable, because they use it. We have one of the lowest homicide rates on the planet (as do the other European countries), lower than in any of these 21 countries.

...I'm not at all sure the prospect of a death penalty is any kind of deterrent to the kind of psychopath who commits such unspeakably horrendous crimes; the "moral bypass" of their personalities makes them impervious to any such considerations. You're absolutely right: these are uncomfortably difficult cases to contemplate, and very different from the case of Mr Whitmore where the state was very clearly very wrong.

There's been a lot of research into this (not surprisingly) and it supports everything you say. Genuine psychopaths are extremely good planners and manipulators, who plan not to be caught. Something similar happens with peadophiles, who usually do not consider they're doing wrong anyway. With both psychopaths and peadophiles you have people who live within a different reality from most people's. That makes it very dodgy to argue that they would respond to deterrence as the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' might. (The way things are, he's perhaps a 'dirty old man' anyway.)

...Then again, if the only way to reduce child-murder and sex-murders in general were to introduce it then it might well be the lesser of evils to do so? Not a happy choice, but a possibly real and stark choice, nonetheless. There can be unthinking knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the argument?

This needs to be put into context. There are currently about 56 under-18 homicide victims a year in the UK (based on an average of 2007-2011 figures - statistics from the NSPCC) of whom nearly two-thirds are under-5s. On average, one baby is killed almost every two weeks (23 in all). Every ten days in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of a parent (65% of all child killings) and 80% of all homicide victims under one year old are killed by a parent.

On average, about 11 children a year are killed by strangers, and this includes killings by other children. The number killed by 'perverts' is lower. This doesn't lessen the individual tragedy, of course, but it should stop us regarding it as an epidemic that's out of control.

Capital punishment is a complete red herring. Those who are minded to, blame any crime phenomenon on the absence of capital punishment. If only... What this really means is that we don't have to do anything in the real world, since the solution is so obvious and we're not prepared to adopt it. So it's our fault, really.

[johncorrigan]

Thanks, Pabmusic. That was very illuminating.