The Farce Goes On

[teamsaint]

Of course the EU (run by humans) will have made mistakes ... though I think to entirely blame it for a western world crisis, which originated in the sub-prime mortgage market in the US, is maybe a little bit unfair?

Things will almost certainly look different from Athens compared to Berlin or London in the same way as people might view things differently in New Orleans to, say, New York or Washington? Is that any reason to say .. 'okay then, let's stop all this 'co-operating' let's have another good old continental civil war instead?'

That, in my humble opinion, is the stark and historically-based alternative ...

Scotty, I only suggested that the EU had a role to play in the economic shambles...I certainly didn't blame it for setting it in motion.
To suggest that without the EU we would inevitably be plunged into a European war is nonsense.
Actions have consequences. Extreme political movements develop for reasons.
Much of the poorer parts of europe are having their lives torn apart by the actions of rich(and frequently incompetent) bankers, and their compliant politicians. They don't see the EU as the as their salvation it seems.

[teamsaint]

QUOTE=scottycelt;214593]Can anyone name even any foaming-at-the-mouth rabid pro-European who has ever said as much ..?

I'm not aware that anybody is suggesting that the UK, for example, is currently at war with the other EU members who decided their best national interests lay in becoming part of the Euro ...?

Are we all living on the same planet ...?[/QUOTE]


didn't you say it in#58?

[aeolium]

Can anyone name even any foaming-at-the-mouth rabid pro-European who has ever said as much ...?

Well, a year ago in Berlin, Angela Merkel made a speech to the Bundestag in which she said "No one should take it for granted that there will be peace and affluence in Europe in the next half century....If the euro fails, Europe fails."

While many people, not just "foaming-at-the-mouth rabid pro-Europeans" have given the EU credit for helping to preserve peace in Europe since the 1950s, it is the identification of the euro system with the whole European project - that if one fails, the rest fails - by recent European leaders that is so incomprehensible to some of us.

[MrGongGong]

wasn't the last single currency rather successful ?
I seem to remember something on R4 that said it lasted for 400 years ?

so apart from the aqueducts
law and order
the roads
the single currency
Bath
.......... etc etc

[teamsaint]

Could have been. Remind us?
Things that last a long time aren't necessarily good ....

ah you did.
Hmmm...as a model for governance, not sure it would be top of everybody's list.
Though the way it gets taught (aqueducts, wine etc) you would think it was a great system !

[MrGongGong]

Could have been. Remind us?
Things that last a long time aren't necessarily good ....

Indeed take Elijah for example

[aeolium]

slavery and military rule - sounds great

[teamsaint]

Indeed take Elijah for example

its a very good thread in the making...are you saying I should leave Elijah in the cardboard sleeve(s) ..and St Paul.....??

[teamsaint]

slavery and military rule - sounds great

quite. But its a serious point !
The Romans...The Normans...both taught as if they were a thoroughly good thing for the natives....

[scottycelt]

[B]

didn't you say it in#58?

Nope, I didn't ...

Team, Eurosceptics 'tend' to get very confused about the difference between the Euro and the EU. They also regularly confuse other European organisations with the EU.

It is not a mandatory obligation for any EU state to join the Euro ... it is entirely up to the individual member states to decide whether they join or not. The EU is a thoroughly democratic organisation whatever bilge the Daily Mail and most of the rest of the UK press like to propagate.

I feel it is perfectly likely that the EU has played some part in preventing another war in Europe though, like any existence of God, I cannot really 'prove' it scientifically to the ultimate satisfaction of our ever-omnipresent sceptics.

However, even if I'm a complete looney in imagining all of this, it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the subsequent creation and existence of the Euro!

[teamsaint]

QUOTE"Things will almost certainly look different from Athens compared to Berlin or London in the same way as people might view things differently in New Orleans to, say, New York or Washington? Is that any reason to say .. 'okay then, let's stop all this 'co-operating' let's have another good old continental civil war instead?'

That, in my humble opinion, is the stark and historically-based alternative ... "

Is from your #58.

As for Eurosceptics getting confused between the EU and the Euro...well they don't all, and if they do, they have good reason to.

If you live in some impoverished corner of Greece, its probably too fine a distinction to be worth making.
The big noises at the top of Europe/EU/Euro aren't exactly helping their case here...

[Simon]

The EU is a thoroughly democratic organisation...

Now that really is off the wall, scotty. I doubt even the most loyal Eurocrat would suggest that. What on earth have you been drinking? Or smoking?

[Flosshilde]

It is not a mandatory obligation for any EU state to join the Euro ... it is entirely up to the individual member states to decide whether they join or not. The EU is a thoroughly democratic organisation whatever bilge the Daily Mail and most of the rest of the UK press like to propagate.

In the discussions about whether an independent Scotland would automatically be part of the EU, or would have to apply to join, it's been said that new members have to join the Euro. Is that true, or not?

[MrGongGong]

its a very good thread in the making...are you saying I should leave Elijah in the cardboard sleeve(s) ..and St Paul.....??

absolutely you should
but why is the Octet a work of genius ?

BUT back on task .................

Aside from all the political stuff and daft ideas about "loosing our sovereignty" (last time I went to France it still seemed very French in spite of the Euro , and I hear they still drink black beer in Dublin !) there are great advantages for small businesses and the self employed from NOT having to pay huge amounts to the bank to convert currencies. On a purely personal level (and aside from the mess they seem to have made of it !) it has been a great disadvantage NOT to be in the Euro, some of the places I used to frequently work in have stopped getting folk from the UK to work there as they are either too expensive or the uncertainty of exactly how much it will cost to employ us makes planning and budgeting impossible.

If the politicians were serious about encouraging small businesses and self employment they might get round to thinking about what are the reasons why people will choose to go elsewhere !

Which isn't to say that what is in place is a great thing BUT there are good reasons to have a single currency

[teamsaint]

The Euro was always going to have up and downsides.

But how many of us really realised how much control this project handed to the ECB?

My simple economics always suggested to me that if you control inflation and exchange rates, unemployment has to be the thing that gives....and i see no real reason to change my mind.

Much of Mendelssohn is Genius.....The last SQ for instance.... and a car CD player is no place really for big oratorios.....