The Farce Goes On

[scottycelt]

'We' being? I'm not sure that the EU as an institution is engaged in exporting arms or fomenting wars, is it? Surely, what the award recognises is that the EU is an expanding area inside which there are no armed conflicts between nations that were formerly at war. No serious civil conflicts. It has absorbed and seen the elimination of former fascist dictatorships. The Balkan flashpoint is growing smaller.

It's just a pity that with our old enemies now becoming allies we have to go out in search of new enemies to fight

The Balkans jibe that is made by the Nigel Farage & other Little Englanders is simply ridiculous. The countries concerned were then all outwith the EU which surely proves the point of the EU and not that it was somehow responsible for not stopping the last Balkans tragedy.

War is unthinkable between countries within the EU as it would be in no country's interest to cause a conflict.

That was always the root reason for the building the EU and it remains its central pillar. An inspection of European history over the last century shows just what an astounding and gratifying success it has been.

The EU thoroughly deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. I also hope that in the WW1 commemoration ceremonies in 2014 our government rises to the occasion and suggests a parade of troops of the former warring countries marching together down the Mall, with the EU flag at its head. It would be a huge signal that the obscene mass slaughter of many young boys in that war and the one which followed was not entirely in vain.

Sadly, I fear insularity and outdated chauvinism is still too deeply-ingrained in UK government circles, and indeed a large slice of the British public, to allow this to happen.

[teamsaint]

'We' being? I'm not sure that the EU as an institution is engaged in exporting arms or fomenting wars, is it? Surely, what the award recognises is that the EU is an expanding area inside which there are no armed conflicts between nations that were formerly at war. No serious civil conflicts. It has absorbed and seen the elimination of former fascist dictatorships. The Balkan flashpoint is growing smaller.

It's just a pity that with our old enemies now becoming allies we have to go out in search of new enemies to fight

Ok, in short....wars are essentially economic. The EU was born as an economic entity, and it is money that determines what it does.
While it is true that the EU as you say doesn't actually fight wars or sell arms, major EU governments like Britain certainly do, and fight the wars on economic grounds in my opinion.

The EU certainly has brought to an end, for now, military fighting between its member states. I used to think that this was a satisfactory outcome, but the wars of the last 10 years have changed my perspective. The leaders of our countries have global perspectives, and have sought to further their economic interests with military action outside the EU. I don't see how we can ignore this part of the puzzle.

As a more controversial aside, I would suggest that parts of the european hierarchy(especially the banking related parts) are waging economic war on european citizens...which may be rather emotive language, but as ever it is the poor suffering.

The end of fighting between Europeans is, of course, a good thing, but it cannot be the only consideration.The actions of our(EU member) governments outside european borders are part of the bigger picture.

Edit: if I saw the EU putting controls on arms deals, military spending, nuclear weapons, foreign wars and so on, I would have a good deal more confidence in its driving forces....but for now I fear it is just allowing answers to our shortage based problems to be sought further from home.

[french frank]

French fishermen off the Cherbourg peninsular found some yesterday...

Yes, one would like to see the EU getting tough over behaviour like that

Future wars will be over scarcity, uncontrollable migrations and ramped up fundamentalisms. With future UK growth, even, now put publicly in doubt for the next several years by one of the likeliest inheritors of the Bank of England governorship, and the surely undeniable failure of the Eurozone project witnessing the rebirth of nationalism among our nearest neighbours, I fear no one can rule out history repeating.

I think most of these problems would be happening anyway. The EU policy that is likely to contribute to belligerent nationalism is employment migration. But that only provides a scapegoat; it doesn't cause the underlying economic problems.

The dangers will come with the failure of the project which is why we should hope that it will struggle through.

[amateur51]

The dangers will come with the failure of the project which is why we should hope that it will struggle through.

Pithily put, french frank!

[teamsaint]

That is indeed well put. However, my worry is that the nature of the project is itself a danger.
in particular the unbridled power of the ECB, and the unwillingness to stop nasty excursions beyond European borders, (which seem to me to be intimately bound up with the arms industry) suggest to me that the thing is not the answer to our problems.
but I don't have the answer to what is. I don't understand why we are anti big everything domestically (you know the things I mean) yet at a European level we embrace them.
Perhaps the answers are somewhere in the history of the UK.

EDIT : where are mr Pee, Beef Oven and all the UKIP gang when you really need them !!??

[John Shelton]

The timing is nothing if not ironic. On the day the EU has been awarded the Nobel peace prize, we watch as Europe sits idly by and lets fascism brew once again – this time in Greece.

The spectacle of fascists physically attacking people whose moral agenda they disapprove of has become routine in today's Greece. What should come as more of a shock is the tacit approval of the police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/12/greece-fascists-beating-people-police

[french frank]

Not quite sure what the EU is expected to do: send in an army? Impose a fine? Expel Greece from the EU? Tell them to stop what they're doing at once?

The interesting point (since Hungary is also mentioned) is what the EU would/could do if member states returned to undemocratic, fascist rule.

[teamsaint]

well, if the EU does want to stop a drift into extremism, calling a halt to the crippling of the greek economy by austerity measures might help.But I guess its too late for that.
It's hardly a new political phenomenon for poor unemployed people to head to the extremes, is it?

[french frank]

well, if the EU does want to stop a drift into extremism, calling a halt to the crippling of the greek economy by austerity measures might help.

The Lisbon Treaty introduced an official procedure for a country to withdraw from the EU. Would that be any worse than remaining in and having to agree to the economic strictures?

[teamsaint]

I really couldn't say.
My point was that if the EU powers want Greece in, and under a moderate government, or whatever type of government they want Greece to have, shouldn't they cut them a bit of economic slack, otherwise they are complicit in driving the Greeks to extremism.

Have to say I worry about the use of language round this. Plenty of governments round europe doing plenty of illiberal stuff these days.......

[french frank]

My point was that if the EU powers want Greece in, and under a moderate government, or whatever type of government they want Greece to have, shouldn't they cut them a bit of economic slack

I'll say yes, because that's what everyone says. But really these discussions get beyond a point where I'm qualified to hold an opinion.

[scottycelt]

The timing is nothing if not ironic. On the day the EU has been awarded the Nobel peace prize, we watch as Europe sits idly by and lets fascism brew once again – this time in Greece.

The spectacle of fascists physically attacking people whose moral agenda they disapprove of has become routine in today's Greece. What should come as more of a shock is the tacit approval of the police.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-people-police

'Fascist'. 'Homophobic', 'Christian' ... all the usual and very familiar 'leftist/liberal' labels and rhetoric trotted out here.

Of course both the 'fascists' of the Right and Left will exploit any situation to further their cause, nothing new there ... and really not a great deal to do with either homosexuality or Christianity.

It is significant that this obviously politically-motivated journalist seems to have totally ignored the much greater street violence organised by the 'fascists' of the Left in recent months. Again nothing new there.

The great bulk of the Greek people do not take to the streets or get involved in any sort of violence like the wretched extremists always do on both sides. They (the people) overwhelmingly want to stay in the EU and Euro as every opinion poll shows. That should be good enough for any true democrat.

Outsiders simply watching their television screens can see where the main trouble-making and violence is coming from and it isn't particularly evident that it is the Greek Orthodox Church and/or the police. Numerous anarchist and communist flags and banners are possibly a bit of a dead give-away to even the less eagle-eyed among us, eh?

How typically arrogant for some 'liberal' outsiders to think they know better than the good people of Greece and to imagine the rest of us are even more apparently stupid than themselves ...

[John Shelton]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9330223/Rise-of-neo-Nazi-Golden-Dawn-party-leads-to-spate-of-immigrant-attacks-in-Greece.html

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-850254

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/oct2012/dawn-o09.shtml

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/389429/20120929/greece-police-golden-dawn-backs-crime-violence.htm

http://golden-zephyr.tumblr.com/post/23288158474/greece-many-police-voted-for-the-golden-dawn-party

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/01/the-golden-dawn.html

Outsiders simply watching their television screens can see where the main trouble-making and violence is coming from and it isn't particularly evident that it is the Greek Orthodox Church and/or the police. Numerous anarchist and communist flags and banners are possibly a bit of a dead give-away to even the less eagle-eyed among us, eh?

How typically arrogant for some 'liberal' outsiders to think they know better than the good people of Greece and to imagine the rest of us are even more apparently stupid than themselves ...

Given your previously stated enthusiasm for Franco I suppose that all makes sense in its way.

[scottycelt]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...in-Greece.html

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-850254

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/oct2012/dawn-o09.shtml

And don't wink at me. I don't like you.

Thanks, John, for quickly proving my point (if rather one-sidedly) ... I've always wanted to be so liked by you so would you start to really like me if I have a big cheesy grin at you instead?

[John Shelton]

Not quite sure what the EU is expected to do: send in an army? Impose a fine? Expel Greece from the EU? Tell them to stop what they're doing at once?

The interesting point (since Hungary is also mentioned) is what the EU would/could do if member states returned to undemocratic, fascist rule.

The thread is about the EU winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Given that the Nobel Peace Prize is periodically given to people whose main specialty is presiding over policies designed to kill and maim multitudes of people you could say that the EU doesn't deserve the Nobel Peace Prize in a rather different sense. But if fascism, with police collusion, is on the rise in a EU country then it maybe pronlematises the rosy end of history EU = pan-European peace narrative which I think is being proposed.

I haven't seen any suggestions the EU send in an army, but I could see a narrative where if a Leftist government were to come to power in Greece (a Left, anti-capitalist government: because one thing - for all the stuff about "left fascists" that a distinguished contributor to this forum is so keen on - the European history that distinguished contributor is also so keen to invoke makes very clear is that fascists might offer an anti-exploiters, business rhetoric, but they rapidly come to an accommodation with capital and make (a) common cause against the left (b) mutual profits / destruction of trade unionism / organised labour) then given the strife inevitably attendant on the immediate cutting off of support and the imposition of effective economic sanctions it would be necessary for some sort of army (Euro-Nato) to intervene to protect Democracy (see Agamben on the permanent state of exception).

Just my euro's worth ....