Time for a national, publicly-owned, railway?

[teamsaint]

This isn't capitalism, it's management by ignorant government. It's the same in the power industry.

I think Hey Nonymous is on to something when he mentions the complete lack of any cost benefit analysis. Does anyone really know what it should cost to run a railway, and thus what rates of return the various franchises achieve? I find it quite staggering that it's cheaper for me to drive a car there and back to London (a round trip of ~500 miles) for less than the 'cost' of the rail ticket (excepting those serendipity days when the fare's ridiculously cheap).

Well re the power industry, it seems to me that the power industry has the government in its pocket. Last I heard they want subsidies to build new power stations, and guaranteed prices. Very entrepreneurial.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Ghengis Khan
Pontius Pilate
Mussolini
Louis X!V
Stalin...

I'm beginning to consider all of the above to be quite pleasant and considerate gentlemen.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Well re the power industry, it seems to me that the power industry has the government in its pocket. Last I heard they want subsidies to build new power stations, and guaranteed prices. Very entrepreneurial.

At last you begin to see. The power industry illustrates the destructive effect of subsidies perfectly. We now have EdF telling us they'll build the nukes provided they can have the same subsidy as offshore-wind! It's become a perfect subsidy chase. Next it'll be the CCGT builders on the grounds that we're short of energy. And the railway franchise operators are getting close to this same model.

The size of cities dictates at what point public transport becomes essential (unless they all go high rise everywhere). Thus St Asaph/St Davids manage perfectly without railways; London can't.

Why can't low paid staff in London get to work just like everyone else in the UK, without benefit of subsidies? Tell me that and I might begin to see a case for the very high subsidy of the railways.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

How much is your driver on and do you factor in depreciation, insurance, parking, cleaning & garaging?

Plus the fluffy dice and the nodding dog

Given your obvious, in-depth knowledge of car costs, can you help me with the costs associated with the operation and maintenance of railways and explain why they're so high?

[teamsaint]

At last you begin to see. The power industry illustrates the destructive effect of subsidies perfectly. We now have EdF telling us they'll build the nukes provided they can have the same subsidy as offshore-wind! It's become a perfect subsidy chase. Next it'll be the CCGT builders on the grounds that we're short of energy. And the railway franchise operators are getting close to this same model.

The size of cities dictates at what point public transport becomes essential (unless they all go high rise everywhere). Thus St Asaph/St Davids manage perfectly without railways; London can't.

Why can't low paid staff in London get to work just like everyone else in the UK, without benefit of subsidies? Tell me that and I might begin to see a case for the very high subsidy of the railways.

Yes, the subsidy chase in the power industry seems bizarre at best...I am not sure I have the answer, (!) but either a purer capital model, or a simple government run industry seems a better option..the current model is not even doing the job of providing the power we need.

I don't have any sympathy with the current model of funding the railways..and I am unconvinced that BR did a much better job.
There are a good number of cities where public transport, for whatever reason, is wholly inadequate. I won't bother listing them. Its almost all except London.

Low paid staff need subsidies everywhere else in the country, to get to work on public transport, so its not just in London. At this stage, its hard to see a model of transport , wholly funded at the point of use, that will keep society running well. Perhaps a vision of universal toll roads, and unsubsidised public transport would work. I am not convinced, and even if it did work, I am not sure it is a desirable goal.

The subsidy chase that you rightly identify in the power industry , is something we can see right across society. However, even people with a degree of sympathy with libertarian sentiments sometimes struggle to see good possible solutions when those principles are applied in certain areas....EG Health.
However good the economic justification for privatised health, (and there might well be benefits in certain areas such as drug costs) its a huge gamble for society to take to actually implement.
In general, gambling with different financial models on the Railways means that any financial failing will result in a financial loss that society can bear...and change can be reversed.In health, for example, its just too personal.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...Marie-Antoinette
Miss Havisham
Estella
General Pinochet
Hirohito
Commodus

...all showed great consideration for the needs of others?

[Frances_iom]

if http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...renationalised is top be believed there is overwhelming support for renationalising the railways (possibly a la ECML model)
Re libertarian models - all those I've seen discussed totally ignore the costs their actions impose on others, ie they move the social cost to others - for the NHS as pointed out the personal gamble that you could afford private healthcare relies on shifting the social cost of the more serious cases when such insurance runs out onto the 'public' scheme (eg in the USA the largescale use of emergency rooms at local hospitals who have the moral attitude that one cannot refuse treatment. In short most libertarians are selfish b*gers who rely on others to fund the infrastructure they take for granted.

[teamsaint]

if http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...renationalised is top be believed there is overwhelming support for renationalising the railways (possibly a la ECML model)
Re libertarian models - all those I've seen discussed totally ignore the costs their actions impose on others, ie they move the social cost to others - for the NHS as pointed out the personal gamble that you could afford private healthcare relies on shifting the social cost of the more serious cases when such insurance runs out onto the 'public' scheme (eg in the USA the largescale use of emergency rooms at local hospitals who have the moral attitude that one cannot refuse treatment. In short most libertarians are selfish b*gers who rely on others to fund the infrastructure they take for granted.

I agree, in general. However, just because most libertarians are as you say, and I expect you are right, is no good reason to ignore libertarian models. They might have something to tell us, or teach us....we probably don't look closely enough at where government subsidy ends up, even though those subsidies may be either desirable, or the least worst option.

[Frances_iom]

....we probably don't look closely enough at where government subsidy ends up, even though those subsidies may be either desirable, or the least worst option.

yes I agree most gov subsidies are not for the social benefit but for the few who have seized control of the decision making process - a more transparent scheme as to how decisions are arrived at would help (including all position papers eg the Tories refused FOI access re potential NHS privatisation problems which to me is a sure sign that some interest group has seized control). But for many decisions it is inherently a political choice - eg many airport, power station decisions etc need tradeoff between often highy disparate entities (eg how important are birds vs a Severn barrage)

[amateur51]

Given your obvious, in-depth knowledge of car costs, can you help me with the costs associated with the operation and maintenance of railways and explain why they're so high?

I took my driving test in 1969, made a Horlicks of that and packed it in

Been on plenty of trains since and use public transport pretty much every day, guv.

But that's in London, so probably doesn't count in your book

[scottycelt]

Brian Souter used some of his several millions of pounds (gained, to a large extent, from running subsidised train and bus services) to fund a campaign/referendum against the repeal of Section 28 in Scotland (I've forgotten what it was called here). It failed, I'm pleased to say

What's on earth has Mr Souter's personal right to campaign against anything he wishes got to do with running the railways ...?

Petty personal prejudices shouldn't come into a discussion like this ... Mr Souter is rightly admired by many and a very successful businessman in the transport industry.

[amateur51]

What's on earth has Mr Souter's personal right to campaign against anything he wishes got to do with running the railways ...?

Petty personal prejudices shouldn't come into a discussion like this ... Mr Souter is rightly admired by many and a very successful businessman in the transport industry.

Glad you see Sir Brian's interventions in LGBT rights campaigns as 'petty personal prejudices', scotty

[John Shelton]

Mr Souter is rightly admired by many ...

Really?

STAGECOACH Holdings, the bus company to which the government last week handed the first regional railways frachise, has been referred to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission (MMC) more times than any other British firm.

The Scottish-based group, which has just acquired the franchise for South West Trains, is renowned for its aggressive commercial tactics and has built itself up by taking over 30 other bus companies. In the course of doing so it has been investigated more than 20 times by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT).

The more serious step of a full referral to the MMC, by the OFT or the Department of Trade and Industry, has occurred eight times since 1990. The MMC has investigated the company for various reasons, including its behaviour over mergers, alleged anti-competitive practice, and alleged monopolies.

Stagecoach's actions have been described by the MMC as "predatory", "deplorable" and "against the public interest".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stagecoach-set-record-of-shame-ful-record-of-shame-1527193.html

[richardfinegold]

The West Coast franchise halted (or should that be de-railed?)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/branson-welcomes-government-u-turn-on-west-coast-main-line.1349247685

red faces in the government (again)

Having just taken a Holiday on your rail system, I emphatically answer no to nationalization. Your schedules can be confusing, but try traveling in Spain, which is nationalized. The service ethic there is terrible. U.K. Rail service much better.

[Serial_Apologist]

Having just taken a Holiday on your rail system, I emphatically answer no to nationalization. Your schedules can be confusing, but try traveling in Spain, which is nationalized. The service ethic there is terrible. U.K. Rail service much better.

Has anyone any info on the Swiss rail model? I understand from acquaintainces that it is still as efficiently run, and ticketwise passenger-friendly, as it was when I was working in Switzerland in the late 60s.