Ever felt insignificant?

[Serial_Apologist]

I too would have to use a book to get David Hume's 18th-Century English right. The point is rather good tough - would it be even more of a miracle for it not to be true?

As for studies of prayer, there's only been one that has been rigorous enough to count - the Harvard study of 2006. It studied 1802 chronic artery disease patients who had bypasses. Complications occurred in 52% of those who received prayers, and 51% of those who didn't. But 59% of those who knew they were going to receive the prayers developed complications. The study (the STEP) project is covered quite well here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies...cessory_prayer

One thing that always strikes me in these evidence-based researches in the lack of any correlation between the miracles claimed to have occurred and, by Christian standards, the virtuousness or otherwise of those benefitting. I have asked various Christian people I know on this thorny point, and the most they will tell me is that "God moves in mysterious ways". That seems to be the final get-out clause in several long lines of unreasoning, the one for which there is no answer. Why not start with no answer as the premise, and save everyone a lot of contorted logic?

[MrGongGong]

I was only highlighting cures that have baffled medical scientists and which have been put down to the power of prayer by the cured. !

a link to one of these maybe ?
or is it more "mysterious" ways nonsense ...................

actually my serious illness was cured not by surgery but by the power of cheese
I ate the cheese
I got better

(ok I did spend some time in hospital but it was the cheese wot dunnit and as I'm the "cured" it must be true ! nothing to do with the serious amount of time one spends learning to be a surgeon then )

[scottycelt]

I think I shall have to pass on discussing this with you further, scottycelt, if you're going to come out with nonsense like the idea that bible stories have the same status as history as the battle of Hastings.

By all means pass on, heliocentric ... I have no wish to force discussion with my nonsensical self on any unfortunate member here ... Good Heavens, no!

As regards history ... well, these are all stories really, albeit based on recorded events. An English history book, for example, can relate the same events quite differently from its Scottish counterpart.

But I tend to accept the events themselves did actually occur whatever the sympathies of the writer and the resulting interpretation...

[amateur51]

By all means pass on, heliocentric ... I have no wish to force discussion with my nonsensical self on any unfortunate member here ... Good Heavens, no!

As regards history ... well, these are all stories really, albeit based on recorded events. An English history book, for example, can relate the same events quite differently from its Scottish counterpart.

But I tend to accept the events themselves did actually occur whatever the sympathies of the writer and the resulting interpretation...

Quite right, scotty

That's why we have all those paintings and statues for JC as a tall blond man rather than as a swarthy Semitic man
I suppose Eye witness accounts, y'see. Derren Brown does a stunt just like that today

[Simon]

That's why we have all those paintings and statues for JC as a tall blond man rather than as a swarthy Semitic man

Is he really this unknowing?

If he only thought about such images for 20 seconds, he'd realise why they are as they are.

Can he actually think rationally?

[amateur51]

Is he really this unknowing?

If he only thought about such images for 20 seconds, he'd realise why they are as they are.

Can he actually think rationally?

Oh don't let me stop you Simon - get stuck in

[Simon]

Does the fact that he went to Oxford make his conclusions right ?

Not necessarily. But the fact that he studied mythology in depth and was bright enough to gain a double first suggests that his conclusions are probably worth at least considering.

To say that christianity ... isn't a myth is more than a little absurd.

OK. Given that this is directly opposite to Lewis's conclusions, I'll look forward to a brief summary from you as regards the scholarship and studies that have led you to this view.

Once I know that you are writing from a background of at least some valid research into the subject, then perhaps we can have a meaningful and logical conversation about a) what constiitutes a myth and b) why Christianity may, or may not, be so classified.

[Simon]

I would imagine that religionists in general wouldn't care to apply pseudo-democratic criteria to the truth or falsity of their beliefs ("ten thousand clever people can't possibly be wrong!") but since Simon has already done so

No he hasn't. He was careful not to do that!

I merely used the fact that some of the greatest minds in all subject areas have, throughout history, puzzled over, studied, researched, evaluated and eventually accepted Christianity NOT as an argument that it is therefore somehow "right" - such an argument, as you rightly suggest, would be invalid - but merely to illustrate the almost incredible absurdity of Amateur's comment that he had managed to dismiss Christianity by the time he was four.



BTW welcome back. I disagree with your arguments, but it's a pleasure to see them expressed so clearly. Same goes for Pab..

[MrGongGong]

well professor

according to Websters definition a myth is (to start with)

a: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon


I'd like to know how that doesn't describe christianity ?

as as you have never provided any references to any statement you have made in the past i'm not sure that others should either ?
though I am writing this in the Library of a large ancient Scottish University and as I believe in intellect via osmosis if I stay here long enough the entire contents of the library will transfer themselves to my brain........ which is about as likely as the supposed "miracles" that were discussed earlier
and if you doubt it
you simply need to "accept" it
have faith
and keep breathing

and

Surely the "greatest minds" argument is fundamentally flawed ?
along the lines of .........

"the St Matthew Passion is a wonderful piece of music therefore god exists"
"isn't CE wonderful therefore god exists"
"isn't Narnia enchanting therefore god exists"

[Serial_Apologist]

Is he really this unknowing?

If he only thought about such images for 20 seconds, he'd realise why they are as they are.

Left out in the sun too long, were they, Simon?

[scottycelt]

a link to one of these maybe ?
or is it more "mysterious" ways nonsense ...................

actually my serious illness was cured not by surgery but by the power of cheese
I ate the cheese
I got better

(ok I did spend some time in hospital but it was the cheese wot dunnit and as I'm the "cured" it must be true ! nothing to do with the serious amount of time one spends learning to be a surgeon then )

So it's cheese now ... prefer it to spaghetti monsters, do we? I'm delighted it seemed to do the trick!

I cannot understand why you responded to that particular part of my post at all. I was not expressing any sort of opinion, merely stating a simple fact.

I do have an opinion on St Andrews, though, it's a lovely little town, isn't it ... ? Hope you can somehow bring yourself to agree with me on that, at least, Mr GG!

[Simon]

well professor

according to Websters definition a myth is (to start with)

a: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

I'd like to know how that doesn't describe christianity ?

OK, thank you for your rational response. I'll put my side of the theory, if at all possible, tomorrow. I'm due out at 9.30 this evening.

Surely the "greatest minds" argument is fundamentally flawed ?
along the lines of .........

"the St Matthew Passion is a wonderful piece of music therefore god exists"
"isn't CE wonderful therefore god exists"
"isn't Narnia enchanting therefore god exists"

No, it's not fundamentally flawed along those lines, as they don't illustrate what most people would accept as being the "greatest minds" argument. Nonetheless it is fundamentally flawed along the lines noted earlier by "heliocentric", with which, if you read my #173, you'll discover that I'm in full agreement.

[Flosshilde]

I'll put my side of the theory, if at all possible, tomorrow.

Is he doubting the theory, or his ability to explain it?

[amateur51]

No he hasn't. He was careful not to do that!

I merely used the fact that some of the greatest minds in all subject areas have, throughout history, puzzled over, studied, researched, evaluated and eventually accepted Christianity NOT as an argument that it is therefore somehow "right" - such an argument, as you rightly suggest, would be invalid - but merely to illustrate the almost incredible absurdity of Amateur's comment that he had managed to dismiss Christianity by the time he was four.



BTW welcome back. I disagree with your arguments, but it's a pleasure to see them expressed so clearly. Same goes for Pab..

You just don't get it, do you Simon?

What's mundane absurdity, please Simon?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What's mundane absurdity

Silliness between Sundane and Tuesdane.