Ever felt insignificant?

[heliocentric]

People of great intellect - writers, theologians, scientists - have for centuries, right down to the nuclear physicists of today, researched, evaluated and eventually accepted the logic of it.

Logic... hmmm... how would you define "logic" in this connection? (Scottycelt says it's beyond logic; you say its logic must be accepted - either you're using different definitions of logic or one of you is wrong.) How do you define "research"? Besides which, if all it takes is faith, why should anyone be impressed by "people of great intellect" being convinced of its truth?

I would imagine that religionists in general wouldn't care to apply pseudo-democratic criteria to the truth or falsity of their beliefs ("ten thousand clever people can't possibly be wrong!") but since Simon has already done so it's worth pointing out that a 1998 survey published in Nature (394, 313; 23 January 1998) found that 72.2% of respondents to a survey sent to several hundred members of the (US) National Academy of Sciences disbelieved in a god and 20.8% characterised their position as "doubt or agnosticism", leaving only 7% of believers.

[amateur51]

Thias is turning out to be a more interesting thread than I thought it would. (Apart, of course, from the rather silly pint pots and "hoorays" from the usual suspects who probably haven't understood the comments they are approving but who clearly feel it incumbent upon them to give an internmittent cheer for anyone fighting the atheist corner, irrespective of merit.)

Some of the arguments on both sides are a bit predictable, IIMSS, and many of them are not really the sort that I'd expect on here: one would expect more originality than, for example, quoting (of all people) the pedestrian Hume. But, having come back from a weekend away, it has been refreshing to read a fairly civilised exchange of views. I look forward to joining the discussion a little later, if I have time.

++++++++++

But in the interim, I have an important announcement to make. I made a comment earlier, when our friend Am51 explained to us that he had managed to assess and dismiss religious doctrine by the time he was four, and hadn't given it much time since. I laughed at this, and made a derogatory post about the level of many of his "arguments".

Having had a couple of days away relaxing at the coast, the thought crossed my mind that I should perhaps not have been so quick to mock. "What if", I thought "Am51 really had received some level of understanding far beyond the norm?"

Because, for 2000+ years, some of the greatest minds in the world have assessed, analysed, argued about and then either accepted or rejected the rationality of the Christian belief. Billions of people have lived by its teachings, have found their lives altered, have achieved great feats of scholarship, self-sacrifice, nobility, strength of mind and purpose, of art. People of great intellect - writers, theologians, scientists - have for centuries, right down to the nuclear physicists of today, researched, evaluated and eventually accepted the logic of it. C.S. Lewis, the atheist, took a double first at Oxford and then, after attacking Christianity as a "myth" found that, during his studies of myths, Christianity wasn't one. He checked out the major world belief systems and then chose Christianity.

So, ladies and gentlemen, if Am51, at age FOUR, was of such supreme intelligence as to be able to dismiss Christianity as a waste of time, we may have to accept that we are, indeed, in the presence of an almost unimaginable greatness. I don't know about you lot, but I feel humbled.

All I would ask from him - and it's not much, really, for so great a mind - is for just a couple of paragraphs to explain to us lesser mortals who have studied, researched, thought about and ultimately accepted Christianity how we got it so wrong. Then we can stop thinking about it all and go down to the pub.

bws S-S!

Brevity not your strong suit, eh Simon?!

I prefer it when you arrogantly dismiss everything I say and demonstrate what a font you are

[Flosshilde]

So, ladies and gentlemen, if Am51, at age FOUR, was of such supreme intelligence as to be able to dismiss Christianity as a waste of time, we may have to accept that we are, indeed, in the presence of an almost unimaginable greatness.

Isn't Jesus reported, somewhere, to have lectured the Elders in the temple at a fairly early age?

I feel humbled.

My apologies, Scotty - you are right, & miracles do happen. What's the transportation of a house through the air compared with Simon feeling humble?

[amateur51]

Isn't Jesus reported, somewhere, to have lectured the Elders in the temple at a fairly early age?



My apologies, Scotty - you are right, & miracles do happen. What's the transportation of a house through the air compared with Simon feeling humble?

I certainly understood that, Flossie - many thanks

[Flosshilde]

And right next to that old article an advert popped up for some moisturiser called The New Miracle ...

Does Scotty realise that the adverts that appear are based on google searches that he has made in the past? I wonder why he's been looking online for moisturisers?

[amateur51]

Does Scotty realise that the adverts that appear are based on google searches that he has made in the past? I wonder why he's been looking online for moisturisers?

[MrGongGong]

Brevity not your strong suit, eh Simon?!

I prefer it when you arrogantly dismiss everything I say and demonstrate what a font you are

Tis a gift to be simple ?

[scottycelt]

Logic... hmmm... how would you define "logic" in this connection? (Scottycelt says it's beyond logic; you say its logic must be accepted - either you're using different definitions of logic or one of you is wrong.

Nice one, helio ... almost hoisted with my own petard! ... but not quite ...

It was actually Member Flossie who stated that logic and religion (as such) have nothing (or little) to do with each other and I agreed but also remarked on the irrelevance of the comparison.

There are many things that turn out to be true but seem wholly illogical ... for instance, a wife who is constantly beaten by her drunken brute of a husband but stays because she claims 'I love him'. The Resurrection is wholly illogical to the human mind but absolutely central to the Christian faith ... if that miracle and others were not true Christ was a fraud and thousands of witnesses of these miracles were either liars or totally deceived by some amazing conjuring tricks. These events illogical? Of course they were but it is precisely because they were beyond human understanding that made them so special and convinced Christ's followers at least that this man's claims of who He was were finally vindicated.

However, many people have come to accept Christianity through study and debate and have been finally converted by arriving at logical conclusions. The aforementioned Lewis and Chesterton are famous examples. One can rightfully apply logic in a search for the truth but that does not mean the truth in itself is something we will then wholly (or even partly) understand. We simply search for the truth and end up where it logically takes us ... that's really all any of us can do!

[scottycelt]

Does Scotty realise that the adverts that appear are based on google searches that he has made in the past? I wonder why he's been looking online for moisturisers?

I also noticed one for cheap funeral plans, Flossie ... bet the wife's behind this somehow.

[heliocentric]

There are many things that turn out to be true but seem wholly illogical

They "seem" to be illogical, but your strange example of course is by no means illogical in reality so I wonder why you even bother mentioning it, particularly in this context.

The Resurrection is wholly illogical to the human mind but absolutely central to the Christian faith ... if that miracle and others were not true Christ was a fraud and thousands of witnesses of these miracles were either liars or totally deceived by some amazing conjuring tricks.

I'm not a biblical scholar but I believe it's true to say that the new testament contains NO actual eyewitness reports of the resurrection or of the miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, since it was all written some years after Jesus' death by people who weren't actually there at the time (and moreover don't agree with one another as to what happened), so it isn't clear to me who these "thousands" are. Various present-day evangelical preachers have claimed to be able to administer miracle cures, but under investigation invariably turn out to be fakes, even though many people seemed to believe in their genuineness at the time, which is at least suggestive.

it is precisely because they were beyond human understanding that made them so special

Just like flying teapots then.

[amateur51]

... if that miracle and others were not true Christ was a fraud and thousands of witnesses of these miracles were either liars or totally deceived by some amazing conjuring tricks.
[.....]

We simply search for the truth and end up where it logically takes us ... that's really all any of us can do!

Which is why James Randi debunks apparent miracles such as the power of prayer and homeopathy. He's a professional magician and knows what it takes to make these things happen

As to my search for the truth, aged 4, leading me to being an apatheist, well maybe you'd have a word with Simon, scotty

[heliocentric]

search for the truth

Well, as I said before, a lot of the "arguments" used by religionists boil down to "it's in that holy book so you're all wrong", which elicited this reply from Scotty:

Who's ever mentioned 'holy books'? Certainly not I or any other 'religionist' around here.

However, the reliance on holy books will eventually out:

The Resurrection is wholly illogical to the human mind but absolutely central to the Christian faith

... and where is the evidence of this resurrection? In a "holy book". Nowhere else! - unless there are some historical texts of the period unknown to scholars which corroborate it. So the "search after truth" in some cases tends to come to a rather premature end, it seems, and, as Simon sagely puts it,

we can stop thinking about it all and go down to the pub.

[Pabmusic]

While I, for one, am in a pub (well, restaurant-cum-bar) right now, trying not to think about it. I almost succeeded just then... Drat!

[scottycelt]

They "seem" to be illogical, but your strange example of course is by no means illogical in reality so I wonder why you even bother mentioning it, particularly in this context.

Sorry, you'll have to elaborate. There was nothing 'strange' about my example as far as I can see. Sadly, the example is not particularly unusual, either.

I'm not a biblical scholar but I believe it's true to say that the new testament contains NO actual eyewitness reports of the resurrection or of the miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, since it was all written some years after Jesus' death by people who weren't actually there at the time (and moreover don't agree with one another as to what happened), so it isn't clear to me who these "thousands" are. Various present-day evangelical preachers have claimed to be able to administer miracle cures, but under investigation invariably turn out to be fakes, even though many people seemed to believe in their genuineness at the time, which is at least suggestive.

Well there certainly must have been many eyewitnesses present at the numerous reported miracles or these 'people' wouldn't have been in a position to write about the same events. My history books are full of stories about the Battle of Hastings etc told by people centuries, never mind years, later who don't concur on every small detail, and with no 'eyewitness' accounts. But we know it happened, don't we? Some people don't even believe the Holocaust happened even though there are still survivors around to tell the grisly tale. You'll always find people who don't believe a word of anything unless they see it with their own eyes! I didn't refer to preachers claiming cures I was only highlighting cures that have baffled medical scientists and which have been put down to the power of prayer by the cured. Nothing to do with quacks, medical or religious!

Just like flying teapots then.

Yes, yes ... I'm now beginning to understand ... go and have a nice lie down, it might help you forget all about them. But if you do find any mention of reports of sightings, even recorded by people years later, please do let me know!

[heliocentric]

I think I shall have to pass on discussing this with you further, scottycelt, if you're going to come out with nonsense like the idea that bible stories have the same status as history as the battle of Hastings.