Annoying R3 Trailers

[Ein Heldenleben]

I hesitate to raise this - it may be a mirage or lulling into false sense of security - but there seems to have been a reduction in the irritating, unnecessary and obtrusive interruptions in the past few days. I don't know if there has has been a corresponding in presenter equivalents - I don't now listen beyond Breakfast - but not having to reach for the mute button several times an hour has been a pleasant change; the infrequency has meant I've mostly just blanked them out, although the car crash interruption to the Music Map thing* did cause a reaction.

*A puzzling disappointment, another case, like Inside Music, where what the build-up and blurb said did not deliver for me. I don't know who it was intended for or what its purpose. Something that stuck out was mention of Phrygian mode, but no explanation of what that was, just "two pieces of music written in ..." (Barber Adagio and a John Coltrane piece), which would hardly have helped in relation to the RVW piece that was the focus(supposedly) of the programme.

The Phygrian mode corresponds to the white notes on the piano starting on E . So E F G A B C D E . Where it gets complicated is if a piece is in Phygrian but with a different key note. The important thing to remember is that the intervals between the notes , starting with the key note , remain the same.

Where it gets really complicated is where a modal composer like Vaughan Williams changes and modulates between modes AND keys.

Rock and pop ,especially groups like the Who, use modes all the time as do a lot of modern choral writers . In fact as a generalisation I reckon there more modal music being published now than diatonic. A large amount of TV and film background music is also modal. Shoot me down in flames but it’s also attractive to jazz and rock musicians because it lends itself to long meandering improvisations.

[LMcD]

I suppose I've got so used to the in-programme and end of programme Sounds puffs which have been around for quite some time now that I automatically stop listening for the requisite time and tune back in again when normal service is resumed! There may well be more presenter generated promo material - but as I don't really listen to much now( the April refresh has been such a success...) - Breakfast is the only regular, and the radio goes off shortly after that finishes - I can't comment from experience. It would certainly be a way round the issue if complaints have been taken notice of/reached the attention of someone important?

Whatever we listeners may think or say, I'm confident that the 'refresh' will be declared a resounding success.

[oddoneout]

One swallow doesn't make a summer, oddoneout. Yes, we will find a temorary lull in irritating trailers from time to time, but I can't say it's what Winnie would call 'the beginning of the end'.

I know, but even a temporary lull is welcome! Wonder how long it will last.

[oddoneout]

The Phygrian mode corresponds to the white notes on the piano starting on E . So E F G A B C D E . Where it gets complicated is if a piece is in Phygrian but with a different key note. The important thing to remember is that the intervals between the notes , starting with the key note , remain the same.

Where it gets really complicated is where a modal composer like Vaughan Williams changes and modulates between modes AND keys.

Rock and pop ,especially groups like the Who, use modes all the time as do a lot of modern choral writers . In fact as a generalisation I reckon there more modal music being published now than diatonic. A large amount of TV and film background music is also modal. Shoot me down in flames but it’s also attractive to jazz and rock musicians because it lends itself to long meandering improvisations.

Now you see your couple of sentences have given 100% more information than did Sarah M-P. I couldn't have given the detail but at least I have some clue as to what what modes are, and that they can affect the sound and mood of a piece of music, and know how to spell Phrygian in order to look it up for the specifics!
I'm pretty certain that David Monrow in one of his 15 minute slots could have explained what a Fantasia was, what modes were, and how RVW used them in his fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis, to an audience that knew little if anything about any of it previously. S M-P had 90 minutes and has plenty of relevant knowledge so should have been able to achieve the same.
Ironically, there may only have been one major intrusion but there were several "mention of Fantasia, must cue snippet" moments which I found distasteful and tiresome. Shan't be tuning in for future episodes.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Now you see your couple of sentences have given 100% more information than did Sarah M-P. I couldn't have given the detail but at least I have some clue as to what what modes are, and that they can affect the sound and mood of a piece of music, and know how to spell Phrygian in order to look it up for the specifics!
I'm pretty certain that David Monrow in one of his 15 minute slots could have explained what a Fantasia was, what modes were, and how RVW used them in his fantasia on a theme of Thomas Tallis, to an audience that knew little if anything about any of it previously. S M-P had 90 minutes and has plenty of relevant knowledge so should have been able to achieve the same.
Ironically, there may only have been one major intrusion but there were several "mention of Fantasia, must cue snippet" moments which I found distasteful and tiresome. Shan't be tuning in for future episodes.

Thank you. I’m not doing anything that any BBC music producer couldn’t do (probably better ) .,Thing is the powers that be won’t let them use their knowledge, talent and creativity - might frighten the horses.
Weird fact -the four note modal bass line at the beginning of the Fantasia (FGGA ) are the same three bass (and root notes ) of the legendary Jimmy Page guitar break in Stairway to Heaven* - but reversed or, if you prefer , inverted . Led Zep and the Who would be rootless without R VW and Holst.

* a solo banned in guitar shops globally.

[Roger Webb]

..............the legendary Jimmy Page guitar break in Stairway to Heaven*

* a solo banned in guitar shops globally.

I worked in several music shops selling guitars, and, yes, if a customer dared to play the opening arpeggios of the Led Zep, the charity box was waved under their nose.

Later when I owned my own CD shop one or two pieces were banned from being played: Officium, the best-selling (its sales paid off a considerable part of my mortgage!) ECM disc and the 'Cat Duet' with Ann Murray and Felicity Lott - this made no contribution to the mortgage as no one ever bought it, they just came into the shop to hear it, have a laugh, and walk out.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I worked in several music shops selling guitars, and, yes, if a customer dared to play the opening arpeggios of the Led Zep, the charity box was waved under their nose.

Later when I owned my own CD shop one or two pieces were banned from being played: Officium, the best-selling (its sales paid off a considerable part of my mortgage!) ECM disc and the 'Cat Duet' with Ann Murray and Felicity Lott - this made no contribution to the mortgage as no one ever bought it, they just came into the shop to hear it, have a laugh, and walk out.

Also banned the bass riff from Smoke On The Water - another modal classic…

[french frank]

S M-P had 90 minutes and has plenty of relevant knowledge so should have been able to achieve the same.

The commissionng brief for Essential Classics made it very clear that that kind of thing was not what was wanted on the programme. I would assume that the same stricture applied to SM-P's programme. She could, but was asked not to? Not on the curriculum for that audience.

[Roger Webb]

Also banned the bass riff from Smoke On The Water - another modal classic…

Actually the bass riff ban was usually another Led Zep: A whole lotta love!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Actually the bass riff ban was usually another Led Zep: A whole lotta love!

Yes indeed - and the same three notes ,,,E G A ….At least SOTW has that Bflat to Jazz it up a bit …

[Ein Heldenleben]

The commissionng brief for Essential Classics made it very clear that that kind of thing was not what was wanted on the programme. I would assume that the same stricture applied to SM-P's programme. She could, but was asked not to? Not on the curriculum for that audience.

What’s frustrating about the programme is that it’s supposed to explore musical connections but has no real analysis explain those connections. I wouldn’t expect any analysis at all in EC.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes indeed - and the same three notes ,,,E G A ….At least SOTW has that Bflat to Jazz it up a bit …

I remember at the time of the Animals releasing House of the Rising Sun thinking how Vaughan Williamsy the harmonic progressions were. I knew nothing about modes or modality at the time because it was never explained, although we sang a lot of Tallis sacred music in my school choir. I think my first introduction to the term "modalism" was in connection with Miles Davis and John Coltrane. One of the best talks on modalism was given by Anthony Payne on Radio 3, with him showing the difference between a modal and a diatonic cadence, and illustrations from VW, Rubbra, Patrick Hadley and Howells. Payne made a very telling point about how the British pastoralist composers who used modes were negatively criticised while composers such as Bartok and Messiaen who did likewise were critically praised.

[oddoneout]

What’s frustrating about the programme is that it’s supposed to explore musical connections but has no real analysis explain those connections. I wouldn’t expect any analysis at all in EC.

Perhaps we are just overthinking this - expecting content and style that is just about extinct on R3 now?

In this sonic journey Sara Mohr-Pietsch maps the piece in a wider musical landscape exploring echoes, fantasies, multiple ensembles, modal harmonies and musical time travel.

The modern version of travelling seem to be going from one place to another and taking pictures to "share". No analysis or facts required, or indeed wanted, about what happens between A and B, such that one ends up at B rather than anywhere else, so long as the scenery is pleasant and Insta-worthy... This seemed to be the aural equivalent in some respects.
I would be mildly interested to know what a listener without even my limited knowledge of modes might have made of that section, let alone the rest of it. Would they have learnt anything or just enjoyed hearing nice tunes, some of them familiar, and all complete(as long as one doesn't quibble about a single Messiah aria or the Barber) so longer than the bulk of daytime schedule content.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Perhaps we are just overthinking this - expecting content and style that is just about extinct on R3 now?

The modern version of travelling seem to be going from one place to another and taking pictures to "share". No analysis or facts required, or indeed wanted, about what happens between A and B, such that one ends up at B rather than anywhere else, so long as the scenery is pleasant and Insta-worthy... This seemed to be the aural equivalent in some respects.
I would be mildly interested to know what a listener without even my limited knowledge of modes might have made of that section, let alone the rest of it. Would they have learnt anything or just enjoyed hearing nice tunes, some of them familiar, and all complete(as long as one doesn't quibble about a single Messiah aria or the Barber) so longer than the bulk of daytime schedule content.

Yes those are pretty much my feelings. It’s pretty superficial stuff drawing a lot of not particularly relevant music to the central map . A recent programme on the chaconne could have included boogie - woogie so wide was the definition. Feeling Good was in there - that descending minor bass line has been used in so much pop , rock and jazz . Is it really a chaconne ? Does it really matter to be honest ?
To be fair explaining modes isn’t that easy . You can say what the notes / scales are simply but exploring the harmonic and tonal implications is considerably more complex. Also interesting why modal music is now so popular - so much contemporary film and gaming music is modal usually employing just four chords. God it’s boring. And yet Miles Davis sometimes employed fewer to better effect.

[LMcD]

Sam Jackson claimed in the Feedback interview that we won't get more than one trailer in any one hour. I've been counting this morning, they occur every half-hour, more or less on the quarter and three quarter.....and this doesn't include any mention of forthcoming events by the T Service.

Given the very easy ride that young Jackson was given on Feedback, I'm surprised that the episode in question hasn't been back-trailed on Radio 3.