Christian rights cases go before Strasbourg court - a case of double standards?

[Pabmusic]

The cases of the registrar and the counsellor were as much ones of whether they - people in authority positions - should be allowed to discriminate against clients on the grounds of the clients' sexuality, as whether they themselves had been discriminated against because of their beliefs. The court had, in effect, to choose between the two. I am pleased they came down on the side they did.

Personal beliefs always raise difficult issues with employment. Many times have I had to conform to a policy or instruction that I personally disliked, knowing that I (quite rightly) would be disciplined if I didn't. I could have resigned - always an option - but I didn't do that because of the personal and family consequences. These are things many of us are confronted with during our working lives.

[Serial_Apologist]

If a gay counsellor had declined to discuss sexual matters with a heterosexual couple and, instead, had preferred to hand the matter over to a colleague would there have been such a hullaballoo about 'discrimination'...?

Only if s/he had been a gay Christian counsellor, one would suppose...

[Flosshilde]

What do you mean Christian organisations exempt from the law? News to me, Flossie!

"The Equality Act 2010 - The exemption for religious or belief organisations
What is the exemption for religious or belief organisations?

This exemption allows organisations relating to a religion or belief (“religious organisations”) to discriminate on the grounds of religion, belief or sexual orientation in certain circumstances.

Religious organisations are defined as organisations the purpose of which is to:

practise a religion or belief;
advance a religion or belief;
teach the practice or principles of a religion or belief;
enable persons of a religion or belief to receive any benefit (or to engage in any activity) within the framework of that religion or belief; or
foster or maintain good relations between persons of different religion or belief."
(http://www.dsc.org.uk/PolicyandResea...qualityact2010)

Always pleased to enlighten you.

[Lateralthinking1]

Surely there is counselling and counselling. Consequently there is discrimination and discrimination.

If a Christian wants a job at Relate and is only prepared to counsel heterosexual couples, the job won't be on offer. If a Christian wants a job with the C of E specialising in heterosexual marriage problems, that isn't necessarily discrimination. If a Christian wants a job with an organisation helping people on obesity, then to say only obese heterosexual people should be helped would be blatant discrimination. Surely it is horses for courses as they say in Tescos. Don't become a fireperson if you have problems with fire.

(A lot of these organisations could have specialists but they have obviously decided that they would prefer not to)

[Pabmusic]

...(A lot of these organisations could have specialists but they have obviously decided that they would prefer not to)

Or, more likely, cannot afford to. This assumes that there might be real value to be had from employing a specialist in the first place, of course.

[JFLL]

I’m just wondering about a possible situation where a counsellor, acting in accordance with his or her religious beliefs (and that could presumably include Musims as well as Christians), counselled a homosexual couple to remain celibate. Would they lose their job? Would it be illegal? (Just asking – no axe to grind.)

[Pabmusic]

I’m just wondering about a possible situation where a counsellor, acting in accordance with his or her religious beliefs (and that could presumably include Musims as well as Christians), counselled a homosexual couple to remain celibate. Would they lose their job? Would it be illegal? (Just asking – no axe to grind.)

Probably, since that would not amount to counselling (which in this sense is not 'giving advice'). It would be akin to proselytising.

[amateur51]

I wonder if anyone has thought to explore the boundaries of the interface between Mr McFarlane, his faith, his employer's stated aims and other Christian tenets such as sex outside marriage, divorce? It could be that this employer has more problems with Mr M than anyone thinks.

[Flosshilde]

He seems to be managing very well on his own since he was dismissed by Relate - http://www.garymcfarlane.com/

[Beef Oven]

I wonder if anyone has thought to explore the boundaries of the interface between Mr McFarlane, his faith, his employer's stated aims and other Christian tenets such as sex outside marriage, divorce? It could be that this employer has more problems with Mr M than anyone thinks.

And what about the simply delicious marketing exposure this represents for his not so fledgling private enterprise?

[scottycelt]

If a Christian wants a job with an organisation helping people on obesity, then to say only obese heterosexual people should be helped would be blatant discrimination.

It would be quite extraordinary discrimination ...

But that's not what's happening. An employee like McFarlane is being told to do something in which he cannot in all conscience undertake.

As stated earlier, there are laws (however ineffective) to protect the rights of retail workers not to work Sundays if they do not wish to do so, even though Sunday is now a major trading day. These laws are intended to bolster the rights of individuals when faced with the power of bullying and threatening big business. Such laws have the full backing of Trades Unions and rightly so.

There was also the recent case of the Christian worker who was demoted by his employer and had his pay slashed by simply commenting on the internet that gay marriage was 'an equality too far'. Scary stuff. Fortunately, I think he eventually won his court case against his employer after a long struggle, which was somewhat disconcerting in itself. (ie, the struggle and its length)

It all boils down to whether we truly believe in a society which recognises the validity of individual conscience and tolerates free speech and expression, or one largely governed by state and corporate diktat?

[amateur51]

He seems to be managing very well on his own since he was dismissed by Relate - http://www.garymcfarlane.com/

Oh well spotted Flossie

[Lateralthinking1]

He was a lawyer for 21 years according to the website. With 6 years to qualify starting at age 18, that takes him to age 45. Then for anyone who wants to believe it, he's Past Principal and lecturer in Leadership Training Academy (England and abroad), Lecturer for Trinity College, Past Director of accrediting counselling body ACC, Member of BACP, CRB Recruiter, Founder member of Network Counselling services (Bristol), linked to Relate, currently in training with FOCCUS, a very experienced private counsellor/therapist, the owner of a comprehensive website, an author, and in a high profile court case. Is that photo actually of him or is he 75?

[amateur51]

It would be quite extraordinary discrimination ...

But that's not what's happening. An employee like McFarlane is being told to do something in which he cannot in all conscience undertake...[...]

It all boils down to whether we truly believe in a society which recognises the validity of individual conscience and tolerates free speech and expression, or one largely governed by state and corporate diktat?

Erm, nice try scotty but I think that most people would expect the problems of lesbian and gay couples to come up in this line of work, irrespective of changes in the law.He's behabving as if it were exceptional.

I would support Mr McFarlane's right to free speech but of course when he is in his job working for Relate he is accepting payment for it and thus has to abide by their rules which in this case include the law of the land created by the government of us all

[amateur51]

He was a lawyer for 21 years according to the website. With 6 years to qualify starting at age 18, that takes him to age 45. Then for anyone who wants to believe it, he's Past Principal & lecturer in Leadership Training Academy – in England and abroad, Lecturer for Trinity College, Past Director of an Accrediting counselling body – ACC, Member of BACP, CRB Recruiter, Founder member of Network Counselling services (Bristol), linked to Relate, currently in training with FOCCUS, an experienced private counsellor and therapist, the owner of a comprehensive website, an author, and in a high profile court case. Is that photo actually of him or is he 75?

Good digging, Lats - you're on form today!