FM Switchover- response deadline looming

[Dave2002]

Ok. So It's new car models, and possibly many of them will have DAB. I don't know how that translates into actual cars fitted. If it's even as much as 75% of the total for 2013, that still leaves a lot of cars without that feature, and hopefully for environmental reasons at least a 5 year lifetime, so even by 2020 one would expect to find many cars not so equipped, unless fitting became mandatory for cars sold in the UK by 2015.

[Gordon]

Thanks, Gordon. I may take you up on that It's a small world eh!

It's a deal, it'll be useful to compare notes!! I'm away this weeked and so an evening next week sometime? White Hart perhaps - enough small corners? I can be more explicit there!!

Does anyone know when the results of this latest CBA are going to be published? I wonder how much data they'll leave out this time :rolleyes:

This report is for the methodology so once this has been assessed they just might publish something thisyear?? The DCMS economists have been at this for ages. "The" [I dont think a unique, once for all CBA is possible yet] CBA itself has been promised us since the Spring this year so it'll be getting on for a year late. It smacks to me of a delaying tactic to put out a methodology consultation, buying time because they are so late. Why are they late one asks? One suspects one knows why.

[Gordon]

That's the implication now in late 2012. There is a bit of gamesmanship and cat & mouse going on so be careful how these numbers are interpreted, they may be being offered as stalking horses. You are right about weasel words. "But the industry is well aware of DAB and is taking a purely commercial view of it. Do customers want DAB enough to make manufacturers install it in every car they make? At present DAB does not sell cars. They can do it if they want to, that is not the problem. A government decision will not be made until 2013, possibly late on if this CBA is late. The launch of new models is very seasonal and so that date will be important as a sign of government intent. If there is a positive statement in late 2013 and careful leaks in the right places before, then by late 2015 [first potential switchover, 2 years after announcement they say] there could be a mass of DAB models available. And the after market sector will be geared up for conversions. All it takes is a decision and the factories will set off." The quotes are because this is a compendium of information in my words that I have received from various places over recent weeks. We shall see.

Meanwhile Halfords will do you a deal and there are devices like PURE Highway for those who are desperate to have DAB now!! Don't all rush out at once will you?

I can't disagree with your last sentence!

[Don Petter]

First - I'm very much of the pro-FM camp, and only want DAB at all because it is the only way in the car to get R5 (not on AM, which has lousy reception), R5Extra and R4Extra.

But, as I have posted in other threads over recent weeks, there is nothing wrong with DAB reception in the car with a suitable external aerial. I have used a Pure Highway for several years and seldom see less than full signal strength on various trips around the country. (What it would be like with a hybrid FM/DAB aerial I don't know, but at least there is no inherent technical difficulty, as far as I can see.)

I don't want to see DAB ousting FM at all, but I do feel I should set the record straight. Of course the objections to the current low DAB bit rates and poorer quality still hold water, though in car, and for speech, these do perhaps seem sufficient.

[Lateralthinking1]

Gordon - Many thanks for your five-page paper. I have now responded to the DCMS consultation. A bit of your work, a bit of Nick's and a bit of my own! Just a gentle reminder to anyone who is still intending to contribute, the closing date is today - 31 August.

[Gordon]

Gordon - Many thanks for your five-page paper. I have now responded to the DCMS consultation. A bit of your work, a bit of Nick's and a bit of my own! Just a gentle reminder to anyone who is still intending to contribute, the closing date is today - 31 August.

Thanks Lat, we now wait and see what they make of it!! Don't hold your breath.

FOR DAVE2002:
We briefly mentioned compression efficiency a few posts back. You may be interested in these links:

http://advanced-television.com/index.php/2012/08/22/ericsson-debuts-first-hevc-encoder/

A state of the art real-time video encoder product about to be launched at an international exhibition and conference in Amsterdam starting next week.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

The wiki article has a table in it that lists bit rates etc. You'll see how complex it is, very much more so than the MPEG2 video standard that is now about 20 years old!! Broadly, MPEG4 video Part 10 is about 50% better than MPEG2 and HEVC is about 50% better than that. There is a very considerable amount of computation involved in this level of video encoding.

Remember that video is very much more redundant than audio because of repeating pictures that are often very similar [eg newsreader]. Standard definition TV starts at about 166 MBit/s uncompressed and ends up in MPEG2 at around 4 MBit/s for a tolerable if not brilliant picture. That's a compression ratio of about 41.5. HEVC will get this to about 160. Stereo audio typically starts at about 1.4 MBit/s uncompressed [44KHz by 16 bits] and ends up around 128 kBit/s [say MP3] for tolerable if not brilliant sound, a compression ratio of about 11. If we could compress audio as well as we can video we'd have good stereo sound at about 3.6kBit/s!!! Audio is nowhere near as redundant as video so this is unreaistic to say the least.

[Resurrection Man]

A friend of mine picked up on this redundancy in video information way way back in the late 1980's. He developed a box that could, in real time, monitor live commercial TV for confirmation that a particular advert had been broadcast or not and when. The actual amount of data required as the 'signature' for a commercial was remarkably low...

[Dave2002]

I put in some comments to the consultation. Maybe they'll have some small effect.

Thanks, Gordon, for the information about new video compression approaches. I'll read them with interest.

[Gordon]

I put in some comments to the consultation. Maybe they'll have some small effect.

Thanks, Gordon, for the information about new video compression approaches. I'll read them with interest.

Thanks Dave. Update on DAB in cars: I am reliably informed that virtually all new cars and most commercial vehicles [farm tractors and the like unclear] will have DAB as standard by the end of 2013. EC ruling apparently. Also the motor industry is very close to agreeing standards and accreditations for garages etc that will be able to fit DAB in those vehicles that currently do not have DAB. All that will be adopted by a Tick scheme sponsored by government and revealed when the decision to go is announced, perhaps at the end of 2013 - maybe.

[Resurrection Man]

Entry in Hansard November 2013

In response to a Member's enquiry, the Minister for Culture Ed Vaizey replied 'that they had had few responses to their request for comment and those that they did receive failed to pass the necessary input qualifications and so were discarded'. He then went on to say that due to the overwhelming positive response towards DAB and despite the fact that sales of new DAB radios had plummeted and that many new car owners were asking that their DAB radios be removed and replaced with working FM radios, that 'the DAB Switchover would be taking place with immediate effect'. He dismissed claims that this would penalise the poor adding that 'if those whingers stopped moaning and simply got on with it, we (the Coalition) could concentrate on more important things'. He declined to comment on the fact that in his 'Register of Interest' was listed an all-expenses beanfeast to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas paid for and provided by Pure, citing that ' as a Minister it was important for him to have his finger on the pulse of consumer trends'.

[Dave2002]

Thanks Dave. Update on DAB in cars: I am reliably informed that virtually all new cars and most commercial vehicles [farm tractors and the like unclear] will have DAB as standard by the end of 2013. EC ruling apparently. Also the motor industry is very close to agreeing standards and accreditations for garages etc that will be able to fit DAB in those vehicles that currently do not have DAB. All that will be adopted by a Tick scheme sponsored by government and revealed when the decision to go is announced, perhaps at the end of 2013 - maybe.

A few points about this.

1. This still does not match a possible 3 year switchover period, as there will still be many cars with only FM sets. It may be 2014 or later before all new cars are DAB equipped.

2. Users will not know how well DAB works in cars until they've had a year or more of experience.

3. What is meant by DAB anyway? Is this the DAB as it was in 2001/2 or DAB is it is in newer forms, which elsewhere go under names such as DAB+, DAB2 etc.

In my comment I made the point that despite disadvantage to some early adopters of DAB, such as myself, it would actually make more sense to go for the latest standards.

4. I also made comments about updateable sets. TV sets arguably have a shorter lifetime, and some TV devices (e.g PVRs can do over the air software updating). This is not what most radio users expect. They expect kit to work straight out of the box, so whatever "standard" is built into the box should be compatible with the distribution networks.

Also, the TV switchover might have been easier because many purchasers had some additional motive to buy a new TV - e.g flat screen, larger screen, HD, 3D etc. If the TV switchover had been timed differently there might have been greater consumer resistance.

There are really no such additional drivers for most radio purchasers to encourage them to switch if they're reasonably happy with what they have now.

[Gordon]

A few points about this.

Don’t shoot the messenger. I only passed on what I have heard in the last couple of days.

[Dave2002]

Gordon,

No, i wasn't shooting you or at anyone else who's posted here.

I fear I may have responded in the same vein as RM's msg 40. Nevertheless I think my points were valid.

Arguably my views could be discounted because I didn't address the issues of the dodgy and speculative CBA, but in the event that someone with slightly more knowledge reads what I wrote, then things might work out. Otherwise we may eventually get a response like msg 40!

[Dave2002]

I was sent an "invitation" to purchase an alarm-light radio today. Not particularly cheap. For some circumstances I can really recommend light alarms - though preferably the ones which.come on slowly - I'm not sure that applies always, or to the offered device. [the specs say it comes on slowly ] It sems that Philips wants yer money anyway, but there's no mention of DAB anywhere!

http://www.philips-shop.co.uk/store/catalog/light-therapy/wake-up-light/natural-sounds-and-fm-radio/productdetail/HF3470_01_GB_SHOPPUB/GB/en?Int_origin=2_micro_home_slot1_gb_en_backtowork_hf3470-01

Perhaps even they don't expect it to happen soon, or perhaps more likely, don't care anyway!

[mangerton]

I've just received an email from the DCMS thanking me for my response to the CBA.

They anticipate publishing the first results "this winter", which sounds suitably vague.