Owen Jones on Julian Assange

[Pabmusic]

...Forced sex on a woman (or homosexual rape of boys/men) are abhorrent crimes which should turn the stomach of any normal person. These appalling acts are almost in the same league as murder and anyone found guilty of such crimes should be locked away for life, demonstrating society's intolerance of such evil acts, imv.

Agreeing to sleep with a man and then complaining about any sexual activity that might result afterwards, whether 'sleeping' or otherwise, is of a quite different order in his (and others) eyes ... that is all Mr Galloway was pointing out.

A truly vile idea - as soon as you agree to go to bed with someone, anything goes and you can't complain. This is the sort of attitude our modern rape laws try to combat. As I've said before, I know nothing of Swedish rape law, but consensual sex that gets out of hand can amount to rape in England and Wales, and Scotland. Proving it is always more difficult than the 'leap out of the bushes' circumstances.

[amateur51]

A truly vile idea - as soon as you agree to go to bed with someone, anything goes and you can't complain. This is the sort of attitude our modern rape laws try to combat. As I've said before, I know nothing of Swedish rape law, but consensual sex that gets out of hand can amount to rape in England and Scotland. Proving it is always more difficult than the 'leap out of the bushes' circumstances.

It doesn't help having the notion as promoted by scotty, that women who complain about current attitudes to rape are just feminist fascists.

[Pabmusic]

It doesn't help having the notion as promoted by scotty, that women who complain about current attitudes to rape are just feminist fascists.

Yes indeed. But it's not just women. Years ago (1970s), I worked for the local prosecuting authority, and I well remember how difficult it was to convict anyone for rape of a girlfriend, or even former girlfriend, and the public grilling they suffered if they had to go to court. We have a better system now, where such matters are no longer resolved by a nod and a wink, and 'asking for it, weren't you'.

[ahinton]

Mr Galloway was only being 'offensive' to so-called 'liberal' feminist bigots who are intolerant of alternative opinions to their own.

I am able to declare with absolute certainty that this is the first time that I have been described, albeit indirectly, as a 'liberal' feminist bigot intolerant of alternative opinions to my own. Apart from any other considerations, Mr Galloway, an elected MP, has publicly declared his disbelief of Assange's accusers' accusations without the benefit of any direct knowledge of the facts or circumstances concerned and that, by virtue of being a thoroughly irresponsible thing for someone in his position to do, his statement is offensive per se - not just to any single group of people - in that his position confers upon him some entitlement to act as one of the country's lawmakers; for anyone elected to such a position to be seen to adopt so cavalier an attitude to the rule of law does him no favours in anyone's eyes.

I see little difference between their intolerance and that of, say, the BNP which they claim to despise.

But it's only you who is raising the question of the alleged intolerance of spcific groups here and, by so doing, you are avoiding the real issue.

Mr Galloway did not say he was being 'inflammatory' merely conceding that some would not like to hear what he had to say

So what? Many of those who indeed did not like what he had to say disliked it because it was wholly inappropriate for an elected MP to say any such thing, not because they happen to belong to the Iona Community, the Musicians' Union, the Robert Simpson Society or any other specialist group of people.

Why should Mr Galloway keep his thoughts to himself to appease anyone, whether it be the Pope or neo-fascist feminists ... ?

Notwithstanding his offensiveness in expressing those thoughts, I do at least agree with you that he should express them if he holds them, for that will help people - especially the electorate in his constituency - to see him for what he is.

[ahinton]

It doesn't help having the notion as promoted by scotty, that women who complain about current attitudes to rape are just feminist fascists.

No, it doesn't, especially when Assange's accusers have not even accused him of having committed that particular crime (or has scotty contrived to overlook this not exactly unimportant fact?)...

[scottycelt]

It doesn't help having the notion as promoted by scotty, that women who complain about current attitudes to rape are just feminist fascists.

I could equally argue that you are promoting the extreme feminist notion that 'all men are potential rapists', amsey. I do consider such attitudes 'neo-fascist' in the sense of being inspired by hatred of the opposite sex rather than by race or politics.

Of course it is undeniably true that 'all men are potential rapists' ... just like all women (and men) are potential liars and murderers(esses)

[amateur51]

I could equally argue that you are promoting the extreme feminist notion that 'all men are potential rapists', amsey. I do consider such attitudes 'neo-fascist' in the sense of being inspired by hatred of the opposite sex rather than by race or politics.

Of course it is undeniably true that 'all men are potential rapists' ... just like all women (and men) are potential liars and murderers(esses)

Would you care to demonstrate just where I might have promoted that thought, oh wriggly one?

I was dealing with what you have written, not with what you might write

[jean]

Akin's claims re. women subjected to 'legitimate rape' having a built-in facility for spontaneous avoidance of pregnancy rang a little bell in the back of my mind. I recalled a wild life documentary that asserted that female baboons found in South Africa had some mechanism by which they could effectively select which of several matings by a variety of males would result in the ejaculate reaching the ovum to fertilize it.

And ducks, apparently.

But the belief that it is necessary for a woman to be aroused in order to conceive is a very old one - it goes back much further than the 1980s, to which the Washington Post
blog (linked to above) traced it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-h-word/2012/aug/20/legitimate-rape-medieval-medical-concept

.

[Pabmusic]

And ducks, apparently.
But the belief that it is necessary for a woman to be aroused in order to conceive is a very old one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th...edical-concept

It is so typical of the American right to be guided by belief, rather than truth.

[scottycelt]

No, it doesn't, especially when Assange's accusers have not even accused him of having committed that particular crime (or has scotty forgotten this not exactly unimportnat fact?)...

Ahinton, we know all that ... and I've repeated on several occasions that the only thing that really matters in this case is Swedish law and that Mr Assange is accountable there for his actions, whether he is ultimately found guilty or not.

However, the argument has inevitably developed into a slanging-match between opposing factions regarding what actually constitutes 'rape'. I happen to share Mr Galloway's views and do not agree with Tory MPs like Louise Mensch who are so intolerant of opposing opinion that they end up appealing to Cameron to flood his party with like-minded women to help shut men like him up! Bit sexist don't you think?

And the lady herself is shortly renouncing her seat and clearing off to start a new life in the USA ...

Anyway, I'm clearing off and shutting up myself now ... all there is to say on the subject has already been said ... many times!

[amateur51]

And ducks, apparently.

But the belief that it is necessary for a woman to be aroused in order to conceive is a very old one - it goes back much further than the 1980s, to which the Washington Post
blog (linked to above) traced it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-h-word/2012/aug/20/legitimate-rape-medieval-medical-concept

.

More fundamentally it is once again all about men knowing better than women about what goes on in women's bodies and heads, the poor little things.

Makes me very angry

[amateur51]

Ahinton, we know all that ... and I've repeated on several occasions that the only thing that really matters in this case is Swedish law and that Mr Assange is accountable there for his actions, whether he is ultimately found guilty or not.

However, the argument has inevitably developed into a slanging-match between opposing factions regarding what actually constitutes 'rape'. I happen to share Mr Galloway's views and do not agree with Tory MPs like Louise Mensch who are so intolerant of opposing opinion that they end up appealing to Cameron to flood his party with like-minded women to help shut men like him up! Bit sexist don't you think?

And the lady herself is shortly renouncing her seat and clearing off to start a new life in the USA ...

Anyway, I'm clearing off and shutting up myself now ... all there is to say on the subject has already been said ... many times!

Make way for scotty as he heads for the safety of those hills.

[ahinton]

I could equally argue that you are promoting the extreme feminist notion that 'all men are potential rapists', amsey. I do consider such attitudes 'neo-fascist' in the sense of being inspired by hatred of the opposite sex rather than by race or politics.

Of course it is undeniably true that 'all men are potential rapists' ... just like all women (and men) are potential liars and murderers(esses)

Indeed - but now you reveal that the problem that you have is the incompatibility of your "extreme feminist notion that 'all men are potential rapists'" with your own declared acceptance that, for what it's worth, this is a true statement!

Clearly, then, what your statement really demonstrates is your bias against those whom you describe as "extreme feminists" (whatever they may be) and your opportunism in introducing that notion where it has no direct relevance to matres under discussion. Well done, scotty!

In any case, if you agree with those so-called "extreme feminists" that all men are potential rapists, would you not also agree that all women are likewise potential rapists? - and do you think that those "extreme feminists" would take the same view?

[ahinton]

Ahinton, we know all that ... and I've repeated on several occasions that the only thing that really matters in this case is Swedish law and that Mr Assange is accountable there for his actions, whether he is ultimately found guilty or not.

In this much you are of course correct, although even that won't matter in practical terms until and unless Assange is in Sweden and charged and tried there.

However, the argument has inevitably developed into a slanging-match between opposing factions regarding what actually constitutes 'rape'.

Whilst what does and does not constitute rape will vary from one jurisdiction to another and from one time to another, I don't see the importance of that to this particular case unless Assange's accusers change their minds and accuse him of rape, which is hardly either likely or credible.

I happen to share Mr Galloway's views

Which particular ones? Do you include in that an agreement with his unfounded and unevidenced contention that Assange is not guilty of the crimes of which he is accused? Please be more specific.

and do not agree with Tory MPs like Louise Mensch who are so intolerant of opposing opinion that they end up appealing to Cameron to flood his party with like-minded women to help shut men like him up! Bit sexist don't you think?

Sexist? No! Ill-considered and illogical? Yes, but that's partly because I do not even see that this is what is happening in any case. The notion that Ms Mensch is allegedly "so intolerant of opposing opinion" whereas, by implication, Mr Galloway is not borders on the risible for starters, but how in credible practical terms could she appeal to David Cameron do this in the first place, how could he comply with such a plea and, even if both were possible in succession, how and why might you suppose that this would shut anyone up?

all there is to say on the subject has already been said ... many times!

Some of what's been said is not as "on the subject" as its sayers might try to convince - and some of that's been said rather too many times!

[ahinton]

More fundamentally it is once again all about men knowing better than women about what goes on in women's bodies and heads, the poor little things.

Makes me very angry

It makes me laugh. OK, it doesn't ONLY make me laugh, of course, but surely the sheer absurdity of it leaves the inconsistencies and shortcomings of logic to which scotty sometimes treats us way back behind the starting post!...