Owen Jones on Julian Assange

[heliocentric]

notice that in February 2011, although he said that the charge was politically motivated, Assange was not arguing that he thought Sweden might re-extradite him to the USA. No mention of that at all.

I had noticed that too. But it could be said that this was because the fear of extradition to the USA could not be used as grounds for appeal against the specific allegations, which is what that article is about.

As Dave implies, if the two women's allegations are accurate, anyone would presumably that JA behaved in an inappropriate way towards them; whether in a criminally inappropriate way depends on the degree to which sexual-oppression issues have been incorporated into the law of the land in question, and one could say (well, I would say, for one) that Swedish law is displaying a more enlightened attitude than others in this regard. But I'd be interested in knowing what generally happens in cases like this in Sweden. The women involved apparently didn't know at the outset that what had been done to them could be considered a crime in their own country. How many such cases are pursued as far as charges being made and how many of those lead to a conviction? - the answers to such questions might well have some bearing on the extent to which political motivations are playing a part.

[Lateralthinking1]

Interesting. As has been mentioned before, Sweden is the country Assange applied to settle in before the alleged sex offences took place. And since then, and specifically since the issuing of the European Arrest Warrant, the same Sweden has been billed by some of Assange's supporters as a puppet of the USA. Presumably if it were, he wouldn't have been so eager to settle there in the first place.

The problem I have with this argument is that if he really wanted to settle there, it would have been the last place on earth where he would have committed the alleged crimes. I believe that any Head of Wikileaks has few options, even at the best of times. Perhaps he felt that Sweden was his best option among bad options unless he took flight to South America.

Being a threat to Big Brother is like being David against Goliath. The public sympathy is with David. The only option for Goliath is to depict David as a threat to women. Consequently David's winning strategy changes overnight. Suddenly he receives nil points.

Goliath could have claimed that David turned wild on the Stockholm streets. David though is still David and Goliath is still Goliath. No one would have thought it credible. Instead, the allegations are more subtle and full of intrigue.

While women are to the fore, their story is Big Brother's. Somewhere in that cloud of undercover detail, Big Brother mutates into covert Assange. So where then does the public now place the Big Brother figure? In Assange. It is Assange that is the problem.

I am not saying that this is what happened but it seems quite likely to me.

[french frank]

The problem I have with this argument is that if he really wanted to settle there, it would have been the last place on earth where he would have committed the alleged crimes.

That might be a more convincing argument if the alleged crimes were armed robbery or murder ...

[Lateralthinking1]

That might be a more convincing argument if the alleged crimes were armed robbery or murder ...

Perhaps - but presumably you are basing your argument on what conceivably he felt he could get away with?

I would say that he couldn't be framed for armed robbery or murder so there also has to be a question about what 'the authorities' felt they could get away with.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying?

Incidentally, what I haven't really read is any strong argument supporting the idea that no one wants to take action against Wikileaks. The only thing that has been said is that the Americans haven't moved in for him so far. Are we all now of the opinion that Wikileaks is seen as sufficiently benign by the powers-that-be for them not to be bothered? If so, that's a radical change.

[JohnSkelton]

Perhaps - but presumably you are basing your argument on what conceivably he felt he could get away with?

I would say that he couldn't be framed for armed robbery or murder so there also has to be a question about what 'the authorities' felt they could get away with.

I'd say it was probable that sexual abuse is, quite often, less premeditated than armed robbery. And in certain cases - as some of the content on Justice for Assange [sic] implies - there's a refusal to recognise sexual abuse as sexual abuse. Or a refusal to treat it as something which is really a crime in the way murder or armed robbery are.

[jean]

...there's a refusal to recognise sexual abuse as sexual abuse. Or a refusal to treat it as something which is really a crime...

Or a failure to recognise that one's behaviour could possibly be sexual abuse.

[amateur51]

Or a failure to recognise that one's behaviour could possibly be sexual abuse.

Exactly, jean

[Flosshilde]

Or a failure to recognise that one's behaviour could possibly be sexual abuse.

Isn't there a risk of getting into Andrea Dworkin territory though? If the two women's lawyer says that he would expect that Assange woulkd get a 4 year sentence, then wht he did could amount to simply "emotional pressure", which, while it might be unpleasant, is far from rape.

[JohnSkelton]

Or a failure to recognise that one's behaviour could possibly be sexual abuse.

Quite.

[Lateralthinking1]

I'd say it was probable that sexual abuse is, quite often, less premeditated than armed robbery. And in certain cases - as some of the content on Justice for Assange [sic] implies - there's a refusal to recognise sexual abuse as sexual abuse. Or a refusal to treat it as something which is really a crime in the way murder or armed robbery are.

I haven't looked at the Justice for Assange website. It is logical to expect that there might be a lot of biased and half-baked comment on there. Most websites don't appear to have a sophistication rule.

While I am sure you are right in what you say about certain cases - it is probably a bigger number of cases than many of us would hope - there is still a consideration that isn't being addressed.

It is that someone - me - and I am sure that there are many others would do everything possible if on a jury to listen to the facts, understand them fully and try to ensure that justice was done.

This would apply whether the person alleged to have committed the crime was a lorry driver or a civil rights campaigner.

But in this one case I could not do it with impartiality. How does that speak of attitudes towards the nature of the alleged crime rather than the broader circumstances? Answer - it doesn't!

[amateur51]

Julian Assange urges the US to end its "witch-hunt" on Wikileaks, in his first public statement since entering Ecuador's London embassy in June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19312679

[JohnSkelton]

Not a word about the reason Sweden want to extradite him. He isn't in the Ecuadorian embassy as a political refugee. He's there as someone who refuses to face allegations of sexual abuse.

Assange is a walking, talking, disservice to WikiLeaks and to people like Bradley Manning who are prisoners of conscience.

[scottycelt]

Julian Assange urges the US to end its "witch-hunt" on Wikileaks, in his first public statement since entering Ecuador's London embassy in June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19312679

Yes, it was quite a lecture for President Obama, wasn't it ... ?

Another smokescreen in Mr Assange's repeated (and obviously already successful in some quarters) attempts to deflect attention from the Swedish allegations.

What we think of the nature of these allegations is irrelevant. If Swedish law was broken then, in this case, only Swedish law matters and Mr Assange should be prepared to return to Sweden to clear up the matter once and for all.

Mr Assange appears very fond of instructing the authorities how they should act and behave towards himself and his supporters over Wikileaks. Maybe he could have a long, hard look at his own behaviour towards legally established authorities regarding an alleged criminal offence, first?

[makropulos]

Yes, it was quite a lecture for President Obama, wasn't it ... ?

Another smokescreen in Mr Assange's repeated (and obviously already successful in some quarters) attempts to deflect attention from the Swedish allegations.

What we think of the nature of these allegations is irrelevant. If Swedish law was broken then, in this case, only Swedish law matters and Mr Assange should be prepared to return to Sweden to clear up the matter once and for all.

Mr Assange appears very fond of instructing the authorities how they should act and behave towards himself and his supporters over Wikileaks. Maybe he could have a long, hard look at his own behaviour towards legally established authorities regarding an alleged criminal offence, first?

I agree - it was extraordinary that he simply ignored the reason he's in the Ecuador embassy in the first place - jumping bail for an alleged sexual offence. There's a robust editorial in The Guardian that makes its points very well, I think:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/19/julian-assange-balcony-defence-editorial

It ends: "The valuable service performed by Mr Assange at WikiLeaks is a different issue from the serious accusations facing him in Sweden. Conflating the two may provide a rhetorical rush, as it did in Knightsbridge on Sunday; but over the longer term it badly damages the reputation of WikiLeaks and does Mr Assange's case no practical good."

[Dave2002]

Just now on BBC News Mark Weisbrot, speaking from Washington in the US appeared to pour scorn on the idea that this was anything other than a concocted subterfuge instigated by the US, possibly with collusion from the UK, Sweden and Australia. As he said, the Swedish police have not been investigating the supposed crimes in Sweden, whereas they were diligent in going to Serbia to investigate suspected murderers.

See the 10pm news on the BBC News Channel on iPlayer 19th August.

Mark Weisbrot - also at http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/markweisbrot