The Gold, Silver and Bronze pro-Olympics Thread

[Lateralthinking1]

They are representing Great Britain and almost certainly not the Little England that you, the Daily Mail and like-minded souls appear to represent.

You are entitled to your narrow, anglo-centric view of what it means to be British. However, the Scots and Welsh are just as entitled to hold a rather broader view, and certainly need no lectures from anywhere else as to how they should act and behave before being considered by the 'anywhere elsers' to be truly 'British'.

But I was asking how you interpreted their Britishness and how you would define your own. You haven't provided any answers.

I have already said in an earlier post that defining what it means to be English is one of the challenges of our age. That hardly suggests that I am confidently anglo-centric. I also suggested that defining Britishness was easier for me and then I offered one definition of several. It is hard to take on board alternative angles on British pride if no examples of it are being offered.

Bear in mind that the SFA advised against the participation of the two women footballers. These are young people who to some extent are still learning about a changing world. I am actually more critical of those who are older and who support their stances. They seem to me at best muddled in their own positions and objectives. I question whether that is setting a good example.

[mangerton]

[QUOTE=Lateralthinking1;190549]But I was asking how you interpreted their Britishness and how you would define your own. You haven't provided any answers.

I have already said in an earlier post that defining what it means to be English is one of the challenges of our age. QUOTE]

I cedrtainly would not presume to dictate "what it means to be English".

The problem is, as I and others have said many times, that "English" and British" are not synonyms. The Celtic nations all understand this, but it is apparently beyond the wit of many English people, and has been for hundreds of years.

[Lateralthinking1]

[QUOTE=mangerton;190552]

But I was asking how you interpreted their Britishness and how you would define your own. You haven't provided any answers.

I have already said in an earlier post that defining what it means to be English is one of the challenges of our age. QUOTE]

I cedrtainly would not presume to dictate "what it means to be English".

The problem is, as I and others have said many times, that "English" and British" are not synonyms. The Celtic nations all understand this, but it is apparently beyond the wit of many English people, and has been for hundreds of years.

mangerton

It might be beyond the wit of many English people. It might not be. At the 1966 World Cup Final, nearly every flag paraded was the Union Jack. By Euro 1996, a tournament also held in England, the vast majority of flags were the flag of St George.

In this year of the Jubilee and Team GB, almost every flag here in Greater London is the Union Jack. That is unsurprising. Both events have been British events.

Personally, I don't think that I have ever seen "English" and "British" as synonyms. Perhaps only in the last 20 years have I seen any real evidence of an English concept in wider life. By contrast, the dragon, leek and coracle; the bagpipes, kilt and haggis. Well, we all know what those are and have done so throughout our lives, generally observing them with interest and respect.

So I tend to see this idea of synonyms as being a celtic attitude that has been turned around. In the absence of so obvious an English animal, vegetable, sailing vessel, musical instrument, item of clothing and, erm, delicacy, you have decided that England is big Britain from our point of view. I would say it isn't and that our concept of England is tiny.

Things get altogether trickier when a barely established England is bashed through the prism of contradictory "in and out" attitudes towards Britain. Celtic culture rather than being loved for its diversity inevitably then becomes less loveable and even resented.

Lat

[Anna]

I also suggested that defining Britishness was easier for me and then I offered one definition of several. It is hard to take on board alternative angles on British pride if no examples of it are being offered.

I cannot find your definition on this thread, perhaps if was on the other Olympic thread or perhaps you might like to repeat as to why it's easier for you to define yourself as British (or did you mean English?) I think I am becoming increasingly baffled by your stance.

I am Welsh but that also means I am British. I am part of Great Britain, or the UK if you prefer, which comprises England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Therefore, although if a Welsh athlete such as Dai Green wins a model it is a source of pride for me I am firmly cheering on Team GB no matter which part of the UK they come from. I cannot see your logic (in another thread) for claiming that medals won by Scots or Welsh will be ignored by you as they might as well be Iranian medals. So, do you consider yourself British or merely English?
Edit: just seen I've crossed with Lat and have yet to read his post, so ignore this one

[Lateralthinking1]

I cannot find your definition on this thread, perhaps if was on the other Olympic thread or perhaps you might like to repeat as to why it's easier for you to define yourself as British (or did you mean English?) I think I am becoming increasingly baffled by your stance.

I am Welsh but that also means I am British. I am part of Great Britain, or the UK if you prefer, which comprises England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Therefore, although if a Welsh athlete such as Dai Green wins a model it is a source of pride for me I am firmly cheering on Team GB no matter which part of the UK they come from. I cannot see your logic (in another thread) for claiming that medals won by Scots or Welsh will be ignored by you as they might as well be Iranian medals. So, do you consider yourself British or merely English?
Edit: just seen I've crossed with Lat and have yet to read his post, so ignore this one

Well, I will come back on that one Anna. The definition I used - and there are others - is that to represent Britain requires singing the national anthem. To be British, doesn't require it. It is a fact of life. And to claim to represent Britain and make a point of not singing the national anthem is an indication to me of anti-Britishness, particularly when that objective is then made crystal clear by the non-singing athletes in the press. That was certainly the case with one of the women footballers, if not two.

What those who disagree with me are asking us to believe - and it is wholly unbelievable - is that someone in sport could claim to represent Scotland or Wales, let us say in rugby, and be in discussions with the papers the following day about refusing to sing the Scottish or Welsh national anthem. This they would say was because they didn't believe in Scottishness or Welshness and everyone in Scotland and Wales would be entirely relaxed about their position. No they wouldn't! It would create an absolute storm. The leaders of SNP and Plaid Cymru would be the first on the radio to argue that they were being treacherous.

I overreacted a little on the issue of Scottish and Welsh athletes at the Olympics. I can support those who have not taken the stance of the footballers. I'm finished with the football though. The players' atttudes have turned it into a nonsense. Like you, I am British and something else. I am not celebrating more when an English participant wins because I am supporting a British team. I can though very slightly take on board that the Scottish and the Welsh might be particularly proud of their athletes alongside support for Britain. We are used to that kind of thing. It doesn't worry me although in this British context it seems unnecessary.

And what the anti-British stance of some has left me feeling in regard to all Scottish and Welsh participants is a need after any victory by them for some sort of reference to Team GB. I want them to say that they are pleased to have won a medal for Britain as well as Scotland or Wales. Previously that would have been assumed. Now sadly it isn't.

[scottycelt]

But I was asking how you interpreted their Britishness and how you would define your own. You haven't provided any answers.

I have already said in an earlier post that defining what it means to be English is one of the challenges of our age. That hardly suggests that I am confidently anglo-centric. I also suggested that defining Britishness was easier for me and then I offered one definition of several. It is hard to take on board alternative angles on British pride if no examples of it are being offered.

Bear in mind that the SFA advised against the participation of the two women footballers. These are young people who to some extent are still learning about a changing world. I am actually more critical of those who are older and who support their stances. They seem to me at best muddled in their own positions and objectives. I question whether that is setting a good example.

My only definition of 'Britishness' is one who happens to be a British citizen ... nothing else qualifies ... race, belief, nationalistic sentiment, or lack of it, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

If I represented Scotland I would stand to attention for 'Flower of Scotland', but I certainly wouldn't sing the damn thing, chiefly because the more who sing it the worse the awful dirge sounds, and the lyrics themselves are embarrassingly naff and anachronistic ... a bit like God Save the Queen, really, to which my approach would be exactly the same, if I ever had the similar honour to represent GB.

As myself and others have pointed out GSTQ was outrageously purloined and is now used as the 'English anthem' at some sports' games, and one can well understand why that is yet another reason why some Scots and Welsh participants in the GB team might be content to stand in respectful silence rather than sing something to which they probably don't know the words, anyway ... and, of course, I've no doubt there may well be the odd English republican or two here who might occasionally behave in a similarly passive manner. ... or even worse.

You talk about English 'safety' ,and you use the word 'dangerous' and being at 'war' with those who simply don't feel inclined to sing GSTQ for whatever reasons. The very valid reasons the SFA didn't want Scottish players to participate in Team GB have been well-documented and have nothing to do with being 'anti-British'. Considering we Scots have no even half-decent players at present I doubt if Stuart Pearce ever considered such unavailability even a minor blow to the team's chances, anyway.

I rather tend to think that your stated views on these matters are, in essence, infinitely more 'un-British' in character than any reluctance to sing GSTQ on the part of TeamGB's most talented players, those skilful Welshmen Giggs and Bellamy, and the nice wee Scottish lassies whose only crime appears to be that they have minds of their own!

PS ... you referred to the women's football team ... I would have thought if the ladies acted against the advice of the SFA to appear in a GB 'shirt' that makes your case even more baffling. Is it now incumbent on every member of the team to lustily sing the national anthem to demonstrate their commitment?

[Northender]

I think the shopkeepers and deckchair attendants of Weymouth should stop moaning and get down to the sailing venue and cheer their heads off as evidence of their excitement at the honour that has been bestowed on their town. They certainly have enough time on their hands, seeing as their shops - and the beach - are reportedly largely deserted.
(I see we've won a silver medal for something, which has taken us from 20th to .. er ...21st in the medals table).

[LeMartinPecheur]

Um, would posters like to revisit the OP? I had the impression that the good Kernel set this thread up for postitive reactions to the Olympics.

Or was he just being a bit of a nut??

[Anna]

Um, would posters like to revisit the OP? I had the impression that the good Kernel set this thread up for postitive reactions to the Olympics.

Or was he just being a bit of a nut??

A wonderful day for Team GB rowing at least, with Alan Campbell absolutely powering away - surely there's a medal there waiting to gained when we get to the rowing finals?* Rowing is, btw, my favourite Olympic sport along with the cycling (time trials tomorrow) A Silver for the equestrians.

Incidentally, the Germans won the equestrian eventing, when their National Anthem was played only one of them actually sang along ............... does that make them any less German?

*which will be tomorrow, Friday and Saturday.

[scottycelt]

Um, would posters like to revisit the OP? I had the impression that the good Kernel set this thread up for postitive reactions to the Olympics.

Or was he just being a bit of a nut??

I think we were all under the impression we would be running away with gold medals by this time, and you can't get much more positive than that.

Talk about words rather than deeds ... but hey, can we claim a special gold for the opening ceremony? ..

[Lateralthinking1]

I enjoyed the gymnastics today. That's the positive bit.

Scottycelt - I never said that the SFA were being anti-British because I don't think they were being anti-British. I think that they were being pro-Scottish like the SNP are pro-Scottish and that's not a problem for me. I thought I had made that clear.

The danger comes from unpredictable people whose position on Britain is contradictory and in many respects oppositional. You can be only Scottish or Scottish and British but you can't be Scottish and British and anti-British.

Just as I implied in my reply to mangerton, the part of those footballers and their supporters that is anti-British is actually anti-English. The anti-British part is a prism through which some Scottish people are attacking the English. It is that way round and not vice versa. It is unhealthy and when it happens it is likely to get a very robust response.

As for your definition of Britishness as mere citizenship, it would if applied as a principle to other countries make any national culture redundant. Why then would you wish to celebrate Scottish culture? It makes no sense.

[Anna]

As for your definition of Britishness as mere citizenship, it would if applied as a principle to other countries make any national culture redundant. Why then would you wish to celebrate Scottish culture? It makes no sense.

Lat, it makes perfect sense. We are, first and foremost, Scottish and Welsh and Irish, we are comfortable in our Celtic skins, we are also British, we have dual nationality, but Scottishness and Welshness and Irishness comes first. Maybe you are not comfortable with that, perhaps to you Britishness comes first and then the fact that you are Engllish. But the English have no national identity do they? So maybe you think we all have to conform to Britishness, whatever that is?

But this thread is about celebration or despair about the Olympics, perhaps as Host you can skim off nationality debates into another thread?

[Lateralthinking1]

Lat, it makes perfect sense. We are, first and foremost, Scottish and Welsh and Irish, we are comfortable in our Celtic skins, we are also British, we have dual nationality, but Scottishness and Welshness and Irishness comes first. Maybe you are not comfortable with that, perhaps to you Britishness comes first and then the fact that you are Engllish. But the English have no national identity do they? So maybe you think we all have to conform to Britishness, whatever that is?

But this thread is about celebration or despair about the Olympics, perhaps as Host you can skim off nationality debates into another thread?

Well, I don't think that I can move it so we will just have to agree to differ. If I think of your position, Team GB is coherent in my head. If I think of Kim Little's position, while she is enjoying herself and milking it for her personal advantage, with it seems supporters, my sense of allegiance is so fragmented that Team GB becomes a total farce. It might as well be Team France.

I do find her stance totally offensive. When the Republic of Ireland are in a football tournament, I support them, and yet there is no family connection. Here you can't even rely on representatives of your own country like Kim Little to join you in supporting it.

I see that we are now 21st.

[scottycelt]

I enjoyed the gymnastics today. That's the positive bit.

Scottycelt - I never said that the SFA were being anti-British because I don't think they were being anti-British. I think that they were being pro-Scottish like the SNP are pro-Scottish and that's not a problem for me. I thought I had made that clear.

The danger comes from unpredictable people whose position on Britain is contradictory and in many respects oppositional. You can be only Scottish or Scottish and British but you can't be Scottish and British and anti-British.

Just as I implied in my reply to mangerton, the part of those footballers and their supporters that is anti-British is actually anti-English. The anti-British part is a prism through which some Scottish people are attacking the English. It is that way around and not vice versa.

As for your definition of Britishness as mere citizenship, it would if applied as a principle to other countries make any national culture redundant. Why then would you wish to celebrate Scottish culture? It makes no sense.

Well, I daresay that there are a small minority of Scots who are anti-English just as their will be a similar small minority of the English who are anti-Scottish. We all know folk who are anti-anything and everything.

However, some seem to equate a separate Scottish identity as somehow being anti-British yet, at the same time, as mangerton also suggested, the very same people don't seem to have grasped the total illogicality of speaking from a purely English perspective and then claiming to speak for 'Britain'.

I celebrate Scottish culture because I'm a proud Scot. I'm delighted for you to celebrate English culture equally, if not more proudly, because you might be an even prouder Englishman. We can then also both celebrate the broader British culture in our own separate ways and from our own different perspectives.

So what on earth is the problem ... ?

[Lateralthinking1]

Well, I daresay that there are a small minority of Scots who are anti-English just as their will be a similar small minority of the English who are anti-Scottish. We all know folk who are anti-anything and everything.

However, some seem to equate a separate Scottish identity as somehow being anti-British yet, at the same time, as mangerton also suggested, the very same people don't seem to have grasped the total illogicality of speaking from a purely English perspective and then claiming to speak for 'Britain'.

I celebrate Scottish culture because I'm a proud Scot. I'm delighted for you to celebrate English culture equally, if not more proudly, because you might be an even prouder Englishman. We can then also both celebrate the broader British culture in our own separate ways and from our own different perspectives.

So what on earth is the problem ... ?

Paragraph 1 - Yes. A key issue then is how we establish a friendly and harmonious condition on any future independence. We can't have independence if cooperation is in any way in doubt.

Paragraph 2 - I most certainly do not equate a separate Scottish identity with being anti-British. For the entire duration of the troubles in Northern Ireland, I did not equate an Irish identity with being anti-British per se. However, having a significant and deadly element of the British and Irish in conflict with each other needed to be stopped. In terms of Scotland and Wales, a similar situation can't be risked. That is why what people do now is very important. It will establish whether independence is safe enough to be entertained. People like Kim Little suggest that it might not be. We can't legislate to help people like her to agitate.

Paragraph 3 - I don't accept that British culture is an a la carte menu. If you are happy enough to ditch Burns, I will reconsider.

You either go your own way in a spirit of harmony or stay in Britain still signing up to British culture. Becoming separate and in conflict is not a decent option, nor is ongoing attachment and smashing what is in place to smithereens. Put another way, the price the Scottish will have to pay for independence is that some will need to bury a hatchet. I'm not convinced that all of them can do it. Let's be clear. If there is unresolved conflict after the cause of independence has been achieved, it will have to look for a new excuse. It will be Berwick-on-Tweed and then Morpeth. Sorry but no. Harmony needs to be clear-cut and borderless now.