Scottish government to approve same-sex marriages

[Anna]

...Bartolomé de Medina (1527–1581) and defended by many Jesuits such as Luis Molina (1528–1581).

Oi! I cited Bartholomew de Medina before you! Credit where credit due for citing oddball Catholic philosophers!

[vinteuil]

Mmmm, Pascal - never much fancied that "pari pascalien" thing. I got dumped with teaching that once, for which reason I have a handsome edition of the complete works. Little used.

... curiously I first encountered Pascal chez les Jésuites.

I was a cadet VSO in francophone West Africa in the early '70s, and based in a Jesuit college / seminary (where I acquired much of my French (and an atrocious accent) ... ). I was avowedly atheist, but happily shared all my meals for a year with the French Jesuits running the place; as a Christmas present they gave me a copy of the Pensées...

[vinteuil]

Oi! I cited Bartholomew de Medina before you! Credit where credit due for citing oddball Catholic philosophers!

... my #56 had a wiki reference which included the Medina reference you made in #57.

So I was there first, na!

[amateur51]

Blimey frenchie, wot a sexist remark!! Stocky! I think you are referring to the Sainted Ann Widdicombe!

I don't suppose anyone outside of Wales remembers the fuss about the nominations for the Bishop of Bangor? Jeffrey John (Dean of St. Albans) was tipped to be the new Bishop. The Archbish of Wales, Barry Morgan, said he was perfectly happy to have a gay Bishop. However, it got very murky and Jeffrey John withdrew. I do remember talking to some stalwarts of our local Church in Wales parish church and they announced that if "a homosexual was appointed then they would be going back to Rome"

Sadly poor Jeffrey John has been shafted by his erstwhile friend Rowan Williams not once but twice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_John

I'm sure that members of Synod would say that this is an example of the Church moving slowly towards a change in its position over gay clergy. What they don't seem to understand is this terrible iterative process wreaks havoc and serious upset in the lives of lesbian & gay clergy and their supporters. How people carry on amazes me

[amateur51]

The Catholic church is still medieval. I have to say I do feel a bit sorry for the old CoE which is much more riven over these changes but which has moved considerably further than the Catholic church (who was that stocky Tory woman MP, btw, who left the CoE to become a Catholic because she wouldn't accept women priests?).

You're a generous woman, french frank. The Church of England has stumbled about, annoying at least 50% of its membership and failing to make a clear case either way. Rowan Williams is a lovely chap I'm sure but as a leader he's as much use as a chocolate oven thermometer.

[Flosshilde]

I am still not understanding how this works in practice. John Corrigan mentioned that while many Catholic people support same sex marriage, the Catholic church isn't in sync. The permission by the Scottish Government to enable individual church leaders to officiate is surely pretty meaningless if those who officiate will be struck off.

Islam is even more complicated. The majority of Muslim people almost certainly don't support same sex marriage so their religious leaders can simply say "no" and not have pressure put on them by regulars in mosques. So at what point does the law intervene and say they must provide for the ceremony. I don't think that it will do.

As far as I know the Bill hasn't been published yet, but statements from the Government refer to 'religious bodies', not specifically Christian. The press statement issued in July says
"As indicated in the consultation, no religious body will be compelled to conduct same sex marriages - protection for religious bodies who do not wish to conduct same sex marriages already exists under UK equality law.

Where a body does decide to conduct same sex marriages, the Scottish Government also intends - again, in line with the view expressed in the consultation - to protect individual celebrants who consider such ceremonies to be contrary to their faith.

Which suggests that the religious body (eg the Catholic church in Scotland) can decide to perform same sex marriages, but individual priests can opt out - I had it the wrong way round in my previous post. There are Christian organisations who would be perfectly happy to perform same sex marriages.

[Flosshilde]

Oh, I don't know, I think I might incline towards "minus probabilissimus" (which means, I think, if Flossie says it's okay, I'll believe him, even if everyone else says he's wrong).


(Is that right?)

Goodness me, Frenchie, when did you start following my lead?

[Lateralthinking1]

As far as I know the Bill hasn't been published yet, but statements from the Government refer to 'religious bodies', not specifically Christian. The press statement issued in July says
"As indicated in the consultation, no religious body will be compelled to conduct same sex marriages - protection for religious bodies who do not wish to conduct same sex marriages already exists under UK equality law.

Where a body does decide to conduct same sex marriages, the Scottish Government also intends - again, in line with the view expressed in the consultation - to protect individual celebrants who consider such ceremonies to be contrary to their faith.

Which suggests that the religious body (eg the Catholic church in Scotland) can decide to perform same sex marriages, but individual priests can opt out - I had it the wrong way round in my previous post. There are Christian organisations who would be perfectly happy to perform same sex marriages.

Thanks Flosshilde for that clarification. Presumably it would best be described as enabling legislation.

[Pianorak]

. . . I don't suppose anyone outside of Wales remembers the fuss about the nominations for the Bishop of Bangor? Jeffrey John (Dean of St. Albans) was tipped to be the new Bishop. . .

The new Bishop of Bangor? I thought he was nominated to be Bishop of Reading in 2003. Still remember the local fuss!

[jean]

The Bangor nomination was more recent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/2663278/Gay-cleric-Jeffrey-John-could-become-Britains-first-openly-homosexual-bishop.html

[scottycelt]

Goodness me, Frenchie, when did you start following my lead?

Maybe it was when you demonstrated your legendary liberal leadership qualities by getting things 'the wrong way around' ... ?

[Pianorak]

The Bangor nomination was more recent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...al-bishop.html

Thanks, Jean, for the clarification.

[scottycelt]

Anyone here particularly interested in what the actual Catholic teaching is on homosexuality?

If not, look away now ...

http://arcc-catholic-rights.org/church_teaching.html

[Mary Chambers]

I've just read it, and I'm afraid it makes things no better at all.

[scottycelt]

I've just read it, and I'm afraid it makes things no better at all.

It certainly doesn't make things any better but the truth is the truth, eh?