Der Fliegender Proto Nazi Russki

[Flosshilde]

That is just errant tosh.

By the way, you still haven't responded to any of my points. But then again I am not surprised as it is par for the course for those with left-wing leanings when it comes to open forums. There is another forum that I frequent and a left-leaning member there. As soon as the discussion starts to get tricky, he ducks and dives, prevaricates, changes the subject, goes off on a tangent. Why can't he and others be open and honest and accept that there are differing viewpoints?

I think people with 'left-wing leanings' have a better understand than people on the right that society is rather more complex than can be reduced to yes or no answers (or questions). Hence what might appear to be prevarication, but is in reality an attempt to deal with that complexity.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think people with 'left-wing leanings' have a better understand than people on the right that society is rather more complex than can be reduced to yes or no answers (or questions). Hence what might appear to be prevarication, but is in reality an attempt to deal with that complexity.

I have never seen so many shibboleths raised as I have in Decantor posts on this thread. May I say, you have the patience of Job, Floss!

But to start with, no one today seriously considers the Chinese Communist Party and government to be left-wing surely? China is now, and has been for well-nigh 30 years, a one-party-governed capitalist state, for which no one, unless there are any remaining Mao or Stalin-worshippers, should have any qualms about condemning for its lack of democratic, nay human rights. In fact, the boot has been in every way on the other foot, with right-wing Western governments all the way back to Nixon in effect championing successive Chinese governments, and arguing persuasion as the best strategy for democratic reform there.

[decantor]

I think people with 'left-wing leanings' have a better understand than people on the right that society is rather more complex than can be reduced to yes or no answers (or questions). Hence what might appear to be prevarication, but is in reality an attempt to deal with that complexity.

I am hopeful that, on re-reading your post above, Flosshilde, you will understand why it sends shudders of fear through those who believe in free enterprise and personal responsibility. It says - almost in so many words - "We lefties know best". That not only smacks of either fascism or paternalism; it leads to the big state, to high taxation, to dirigism, to welfarism, to reduced liberty and choice; it gears society to assist, not only the disadvantaged, but also the feckless and irresponsible. In sum, it diminishes the individual, leeches on the successful, and leads to the greying of society.

It is true that those on the right are guilty of many iniquities, but on the whole they are aware of the need for a 'compassionate face'. The best of them will also grasp the complexity of which you speak. You do your cause no favours by claiming a moral and intellectual superiority - and I say that as one who aspires to have both eyes open.

[amateur51]

I am hopeful that, on re-reading your post above, Flosshilde, you will understand why it sends shudders of fear through those who believe in free enterprise and personal responsibility. It says - almost in so many words - "We lefties know best". That not only smacks of either fascism or paternalism; it leads to the big state, to high taxation, to dirigism, to welfarism, to reduced liberty and choice; it gears society to assist, not only the disadvantaged, but also the feckless and irresponsible. In sum, it diminishes the individual, leeches on the successful, and leads to the greying of society.

It is true that those on the right are guilty of many iniquities, but on the whole they are aware of the need for a 'compassionate face'. The best of them will also grasp the complexity of which you speak. You do your cause no favours by claiming a moral and intellectual superiority - and I say that as one who aspires to have both eyes open.

Isn't it warm this evening?

[Serial_Apologist]

I am hopeful that, on re-reading your post above, Flosshilde, you will understand why it sends shudders of fear through those who believe in free enterprise and personal responsibility.

Let's unpick all this. Where is your evidence that criticism of what you describe as "free enterprise" - one heck of an oversimplification in itself, btw, but we'll leave that for now - is incompatible with personal responsibility?

It says - almost in so many words - "We lefties know best".

It doesn't "say" anything of the kind. What it says is that the issues are more complex than for which you are prepared to give consideration.

That not only smacks of either fascism or paternalism; it leads to the big state, to high taxation, to dirigism, to welfarism, to reduced liberty and choice; it gears society to assist, not only the disadvantaged, but also the feckless and irresponsible. In sum, it diminishes the individual, leeches on the successful, and leads to the greying of society.

Well, that lumps together an awful lot of vague generalisations, decantor. What you seem to be saying is that your distorted version of Flosshinde's above answers leads to these consequences, without explaining how they somehow manage to.

It is true that those on the right are guilty of many iniquities, but on the whole they are aware of the need for a 'compassionate face'. The best of them will also grasp the complexity of which you speak.

Ah good, so you acknowledge that the issues are in fact complex, as Floss pointed out. Why spend so much energy launching into your preceding diatribe, then?

You do your cause no favours by claiming a moral and intellectual superiority - and I say that as one who aspires to have both eyes open.

Where does Flosshilde claim any moral or intellectual superiority in this thread, decantor? Evidence, please.

[umslopogaas]

It'll get warmer when I get the stopper out of this decantor, but just at the moment I need to let a few thoughts settle through the dregs of other's lousy sherry.

(They keep it in decanters to disguise the fact that its very cheap and nasty. Note by the way that it is spelled decanter, not decantor. Decantor does not appear in my dictionary (though that is not going to bother me very long, because neither does umslopogaas).)

"Shudders of fear through those who believe in free enterprise and personal responsibility"

Ah yes, the freedom to indulge in unfettered exploitation (woops, sorry, that should have read unfettered enterprise, ie rapacity, ie anything you think you can get away with) and as little responsibility for any reprehensible action that can settle on your verminous shoulders. I'll be back.

[amateur51]

I'll be back.

Oh good-o!

[Resurrection Man]

Isn't it warm this evening?

That is such a typically banal response to what has been one of the most eloquent posts. Your post confirms everything that those with a more liberal understanding of life fear.

And predictably all the rest of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse have ridden forth in pursuit of the .well, what exactly...Shibboleth? Yup, that fits.


Anyway returning to the original thread...there is one interpretation that is valid if one had ANY generosity of spirit (sadly lacking in many who post here)......to whit that our Russian singer (a) has a very good voice and well-suited to the role and (b) had his tattoos done when he was a naive young man. If one accepts that these two are valid viewpoints then to argue anything else comes across as, frankly, petty-minded.

[decantor]

Let's unpick all this. Where is your evidence that criticism of what you describe as "free enterprise" - one heck of an oversimplification in itself, btw, but we'll leave that for now - is incompatible with personal responsibility?

It isn't. I grouped them together. But if everything is an 'oversimplification', we're going to need a bigger message-board.

It doesn't "say" anything of the kind. What it says is that the issues are more complex than for which you are prepared to give consideration.

And the evidence for the assertion that my mind is closed? Of course the issues are complex - too complex for any of us, in truth. Is there 'evidence' that the Left understand them better? Who are the Left in real life? Do they have a mainstream party in UK?

Well, that lumps together an awful lot of vague generalisations, decantor. What you seem to be saying is that your distorted version of Flosshinde's above answers leads to these consequences, without explaining how they somehow manage to.

Distorted version? Flosshilde spoke loud and clear - "We know best". I thought my logic was pretty straightforward - it's part of socialist ideology.

Ah good, so you acknowledge that the issues are in fact complex, as Floss pointed out. Why spend so much energy launching into your preceding diatribe, then?

Because I dislike people dictating to me. He not only said the issues are complex: he claimed he understood them better than others. Arrogant or what?

Where does Flosshilde claim any moral or intellectual superiority in this thread, decantor? Evidence, please.

He says in the post to which I replied: "I think people with 'left-wing leanings' have a better understand than people on the right that society is rather more complex than can be reduced to yes or no answers (or questions)." So he claims to know better than his opponents - which part of that is open to doubt?

It's been a lovely warm evening. I dined al fresco. I'm sorry I disturbed the hornets' nest, but luckily I wasn't stung. Now I can go on holiday.

[Resurrection Man]

It isn't. I grouped them together. But if everything is an 'oversimplification', we're going to need a bigger message-board.

And the evidence for the assertion that my mind is closed? Of course the issues are complex - too complex for any of us, in truth. Is there 'evidence' that the Left understand them better? Who are the Left in real life? Do they have a mainstream party in UK?

Distorted version? Flosshilde spoke loud and clear - "We know best". I thought my logic was pretty straightforward - it's part of socialist ideology.

Because I dislike people dictating to me. He not only said the issues are complex: he claimed he understood them better than others. Arrogant or what?

He says in the post to which I replied: "I think people with 'left-wing leanings' have a better understand than people on the right that society is rather more complex than can be reduced to yes or no answers (or questions)." So he claims to know better than his opponents - which part of that is open to doubt?

It's been a lovely warm evening. I dined al fresco. I'm sorry I disturbed the hornets' nest, but luckily I wasn't stung. Now I can go on holiday.

Style.....plus style (that's French by the way ..just to make sure some understand it).

[french frank]

Oh, dear. I'd love to join in this one - but I suppose I'd better sit it out ...

[Resurrection Man]

Oh, dear. I'd love to join in this one - but I suppose I'd better sit it out ...

[Serial_Apologist]

Oh, dear. I'd love to join in this one - but I suppose I'd better sit it out ...

I'm probably dropping out of this thread now. Decantor's resort to bluster and rhetoric just debases discussion.

[Flosshilde]

I am hopeful that, on re-reading your post above, Flosshilde, you will understand why it sends shudders of fear through those who believe in free enterprise and personal responsibility. It says - almost in so many words - "We lefties know best". That not only smacks of either fascism or paternalism; it leads to the big state, to high taxation, to dirigism, to welfarism, to reduced liberty and choice; it gears society to assist, not only the disadvantaged, but also the feckless and irresponsible. In sum, it diminishes the individual, leeches on the successful, and leads to the greying of society.

It is true that those on the right are guilty of many iniquities, but on the whole they are aware of the need for a 'compassionate face'.

And behind the compassionate face - which is usually just a mask? You have Cameron's back benches.

[Flosshilde]

Anyway returning to the original thread...there is one interpretation that is valid if one had ANY generosity of spirit (sadly lacking in many who post here)......to whit that our Russian singer ... (b) had his tattoos done when he was a naive young man.

Which is what I said in my first post in the thread -

many, if not most, young people do things, including get tattood, that they come to regret (even more so if they've posted pictures of them on Facebook).

But, I went on to say -

for a singer who wants to specialise in Wagner to say that "I was not aware of the extent of the irritation and offence these signs and symbols would cause, particularly in Bayreuth given the context of the festival's history," (Guardian) seems remarkably stupid.

& I still think that.