Rep South Africa in England Test Series and Tour

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i can not disagree with you both i just hope you are wrong ..... the last SA test will be an interesting reveal of team psychology ... and Pietersen has not been without some very 'average' moments eh?

[AmpH]

I tend to agree with much of what has been written in the interesting and knowledgable posts on the thread today. The current England team and management have many admirable qualities but are essentially a team of ' perspiration ' rather than ' inspiration ' who have succeeded in a less than stellar era of Test Cricket - any objective assessment of the generally moderate quality of test bowling attacks around the world since the retirements of McGrath , Warne and Murali points to this. The England bowling and batting units continue to be too inconsistent for a supposed ' top ' team.

As to Mr P, well his relationship with English cricket has always appeared to be simply an opportunistic marriage of convenience and there have been so many falling outs on the way that it was always likely to end in tears. So talented, yet so deeply flawed and in the cold light of day it has to be said that there have been more innings failures than successes Time to cut the chord permanently and let all parties move on.

To the things that have been overshadowed but really matter. This is a critical test match which will tell as a great deal about the true merits of both sides. A fine, tenacious and worthy England captain reaches a real milestone to be proud of and a young, talented ( raw ) attacking batsmen is again thrust into the breach with even more pressure on him than normal. So well done Straussy, come on England and especially Bairstow and Taylor - they and other native talents are the future, not opportunists from abroad.

[JohnSkelton]

Having seen what Bresnan, Broad and Swann have being saying I'm starting to feel some sympathy for Pietersen, five words I didn't think I'd ever write. There's a strong whiff of them not wanting him in their gang.

His failures can be overstated, I think. He did have a very poor extended run in 50 over cricket, but there have been plenty of innings where he's turned a game on its head for England (going back to the Oval Test in 2005, which England would otherwise have lost had it not been for his deconstruction of Brett Lee and his 140 odd. That would have spared us the Flintoff spectacle of course). A marriage of convenience, yes: but it shouldn't be forgotten that from the England coaching staff Graham Gooch twice walked out on England to play in South African Apartheid era rebel tours. The best of Pietersen has also often come when the test has been greatest, the conditions most difficult, the bowling at its most challenging. While the more modest talents who accumulate greedily against the more modest attacks have failed.

I agree with aeolium that Bell and I suppose Prior apart there's not much to lift the spirits in England's batting now. Anderson is a serious world class bowler; in the case of Swann I think familiarity has got the message across that he's an orthodox off-spinner and can be played as such. It bothers me that Finn seems to have gone from being a fast bowler to a (not very adept) Saker-like 'disciplines' bowler. Anyhow we'll see. I predict South Africa will win easily. (I hope Bairstow does OK).

[aeolium]

Having seen what Bresnan, Broad and Swann have being saying I'm starting to feel some sympathy for Pietersen, five words I didn't think I'd ever write. There's a strong whiff of them not wanting him in their gang.

On the other hand, looking at the way Pietersen behaved after the Headingley test, with his press conference, you could understand why some of his colleagues would feel fed up to the back teeth with him. His complaints about the schedule - which would be justified if it were simply about the amount of international cricket played and stupid little one-day series like the Australian ODI one - really boil down to the fact that the international schedule is getting in the way of his playing a full IPL tournament. He says it is not really about the money but how can anyone believe that? He doesn't need to play in the IPL but like cricketers who are paid much less well than he is can see it is loadsamoney for old rope. From what he earns from international cricket and related sponsorship he is very well rewarded - and he can fall back on the IPL tournaments after he has retired from internationals, as others like Hayden, Gilchrist and Lee have done.

Perhaps the England management have not handled him well, but it is telling that he has fallen out with almost every single team he has played for.

[AmpH]

On the other hand, looking at the way Pietersen behaved after the Headingley test, with his press conference, you could understand why some of his colleagues would feel fed up to the back teeth with him. His complaints about the schedule - which would be justified if it were simply about the amount of international cricket played and stupid little one-day series like the Australian ODI one - really boil down to the fact that the international schedule is getting in the way of his playing a full IPL tournament. He says it is not really about the money but how can anyone believe that? He doesn't need to play in the IPL but like cricketers who are paid much less well than he is can see it is loadsamoney for old rope. From what he earns from international cricket and related sponsorship he is very well rewarded - and he can fall back on the IPL tournaments after he has retired from internationals, as others like Hayden, Gilchrist and Lee have done.

Perhaps the England management have not handled him well, but it is telling that he has fallen out with almost every single team he has played for.

I think you encapsulate many of the thoughts I have had Aeolium.

Boycott provides a characteristically forthright view on the matter in the Telegraph :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/9473586/Geoffrey-Boycott-Kevin-Pietersen-cant-return-to-the-England-side-until-he-is-man-enough-to-say-sorry.html

I didn't always enjoy watching GB play, nor do I always agree with what he says, but I think he pretty much hits the nail on the head here - in a nutshell ' its all about the team '.

[JohnSkelton]

Geoffrey Boycott ... its all about the team.

That's rich coming from Boycott. The man who refused to play for England for three years? The man who gave interviews on evening TV to Parkinson about the small-mindedness of the Yorkshire committee?


Unbelievable. I don't have any affection for Pietersen, but one big difference between him and the sainted Geoffrey is that I've never seen him perform in a match in a way that went against the team's interests. With Boycott it was a specialty.

[JohnSkelton]

From Wikipedia

On 3 October 1983 the friction between Boycott and the committee culminated in a unanimous decision not to offer Boycott a contract for the next season. This generated much protest from Boycott supporters, who rallied, calling for his reinstatement at a meeting on 9 October in Ossett, Yorkshire. Bill Athey left the club at this time, and while Boycott in his biography maintained that he had no reason to believe that his actions had caused Athey's departure, Athey later stated to biographer Leo McKinstry that "Boycott's attitude and the atmosphere he created had everything to do with my decision to leave Yorkshire." The "Members 84 Group", consisting of strong supporters of Boycott, met regularly to clamour for the batsman's reinstatement.[78] Their leader, Peter Briggs, stated "Geoffrey Boycott is a giant playing among pygmies."[79]

On 21 January 1984 the Yorkshire Club committee, in the face of this rising pressure, agreed to offer Boycott a contract for 1984. Several members of the committee, including Trueman, Billy Sutcliffe and Ronnie Burnet, resigned. Of the replacement members, 17 were from the Members 84 Group, and Boycott himself was elected, leaving him with both a position on the team and on the Yorkshire Club committee.[80] The 1984 season was, however, not the most prolific for Boycott. McKinstry records that he scored slowly in several matches: 60 in 52 overs against Somerset; 53 in 51 overs against Hampshire;[81] 17 in 26 overs against Leicestershire; 77 in 67 overs against Sussex. This was coupled with continued friction between himself and both players and club members.[82] In particular, Boycott's place on both the team and the committee led to feelings of distrust from both – though Boycott denies this – which led to the loss of support from long-term ally Sid Fielden.[83]

His success on the field resumed in 1985, where he scored 1,657 runs at 75.31, second only to Viv Richards in the national averages. He also shared a record opening partnership of 351 with Martyn Moxon. In contrast to the poor relations between Boycott and the senior players, many junior members of the team remember 1985 and 1986 as pleasant times to be around Boycott, who often coached them on their technique.[84] 1986 saw Boycott score 890 runs at 52.35, his season cut short by injuries which were becoming more frequent as he passed the age of 45.[85] This season was the first since 1962 that he had not hit an overall total of 1,000 runs; he finished eight short in his final match, when he was run out for 61. He advised the then captain to enforce the follow-on, and did not bat again. Since 1984, support for Boycott had waned in light of his slow scoring, multiple injuries and the general atmosphere around him. Both Brian Close and Ray Illingworth increasingly advocated his removal to Yorkshire's committee, and on 23 September 1986 it was confirmed that he would not be offered a contract for the following year. A few months later, captain David Bairstow, a long term ally of Boycott whose leadership had Boycott's support, was ruled out of the running for captaincy for the following season, which was instead given to Phil Carrick, of whom Boycott disapproved. Boycott paid tribute to the Reform Group in 1987, describing them as "dedicated Yorkshire members with a heartfelt stake in their club." He suggests that Close and Illingworth feared his popularity.[86] Boycott was offered contracts by other counties, including Derbyshire and Glamorgan, but he never took these offers up, nor played professional cricket again.[87] At the time of his retirement he had scored more first-class runs than any other player.[88]

[AmpH]

That's rich coming from Boycott. The man who refused to play for England for three years? The man who gave interviews on evening TV to Parkinson about the small-mindedness of the Yorkshire committee?


Unbelievable. I don't have any affection for Pietersen, but one big difference between him and the sainted Geoffrey is that I've never seen him perform in a match in a way that went against the team's interests. With Boycott it was a specialty.

Oh the delicious irony of it all ......... the former holder of 'the ultimate team man' title criticises the current and unopposed holder of the very same title who has single handedly taken it to previously undreamed of heights !!!

Still ..... points well made though.

[AmpH]

From Wikipedia

On 3 October 1983 the friction between Boycott and the committee culminated in a unanimous decision not to offer Boycott a contract for the next season. This generated much protest from Boycott supporters, who rallied, calling for his reinstatement at a meeting on 9 October in Ossett, Yorkshire. Bill Athey left the club at this time, and while Boycott in his biography maintained that he had no reason to believe that his actions had caused Athey's departure, Athey later stated to biographer Leo McKinstry that "Boycott's attitude and the atmosphere he created had everything to do with my decision to leave Yorkshire." The "Members 84 Group", consisting of strong supporters of Boycott, met regularly to clamour for the batsman's reinstatement.[78] Their leader, Peter Briggs, stated "Geoffrey Boycott is a giant playing among pygmies."[79]

On 21 January 1984 the Yorkshire Club committee, in the face of this rising pressure, agreed to offer Boycott a contract for 1984. Several members of the committee, including Trueman, Billy Sutcliffe and Ronnie Burnet, resigned. Of the replacement members, 17 were from the Members 84 Group, and Boycott himself was elected, leaving him with both a position on the team and on the Yorkshire Club committee.[80] The 1984 season was, however, not the most prolific for Boycott. McKinstry records that he scored slowly in several matches: 60 in 52 overs against Somerset; 53 in 51 overs against Hampshire;[81] 17 in 26 overs against Leicestershire; 77 in 67 overs against Sussex. This was coupled with continued friction between himself and both players and club members.[82] In particular, Boycott's place on both the team and the committee led to feelings of distrust from both – though Boycott denies this – which led to the loss of support from long-term ally Sid Fielden.[83]

His success on the field resumed in 1985, where he scored 1,657 runs at 75.31, second only to Viv Richards in the national averages. He also shared a record opening partnership of 351 with Martyn Moxon. In contrast to the poor relations between Boycott and the senior players, many junior members of the team remember 1985 and 1986 as pleasant times to be around Boycott, who often coached them on their technique.[84] 1986 saw Boycott score 890 runs at 52.35, his season cut short by injuries which were becoming more frequent as he passed the age of 45.[85] This season was the first since 1962 that he had not hit an overall total of 1,000 runs; he finished eight short in his final match, when he was run out for 61. He advised the then captain to enforce the follow-on, and did not bat again. Since 1984, support for Boycott had waned in light of his slow scoring, multiple injuries and the general atmosphere around him. Both Brian Close and Ray Illingworth increasingly advocated his removal to Yorkshire's committee, and on 23 September 1986 it was confirmed that he would not be offered a contract for the following year. A few months later, captain David Bairstow, a long term ally of Boycott whose leadership had Boycott's support, was ruled out of the running for captaincy for the following season, which was instead given to Phil Carrick, of whom Boycott disapproved. Boycott paid tribute to the Reform Group in 1987, describing them as "dedicated Yorkshire members with a heartfelt stake in their club." He suggests that Close and Illingworth feared his popularity.[86] Boycott was offered contracts by other counties, including Derbyshire and Glamorgan, but he never took these offers up, nor played professional cricket again.[87] At the time of his retirement he had scored more first-class runs than any other player.[88]

Nay lad. Tha diddent need ta ger ta all that trubble just fer mee - yer shakken a' path

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

b8gger just going to post about the gritty fightback and Bell is caught! ... tight game eh ..

[amateur51]

b8gger just going to post about the gritty fightback and Bell is caught! ... tight game eh ..

Tight indeed Calum & fascinating too. Bairstow & Prior have taken England to within 101 of RSA's score with 5 wickets down - and the weather forecast for tomorrow is good too

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yep and i am looking forward to another good day's cricket
great series

[aeolium]

I fear the new ball tomorrow will finish England off some way behind SA's total.

What a pity this is not a 5-test series. I thought it was miles better when they started the test series in June and had either a 5-test series or two 3-test series depending on the opposition. Instead the fixture list is flooded with tedious ODIs which are quite unmemorable yet are very wearing for the players.

[amateur51]

I fear the new ball tomorrow will finish England off some way behind SA's total.

What a pity this is not a 5-test series. I thought it was miles better when they started the test series in June and had either a 5-test series or two 3-test series depending on the opposition. Instead the fixture list is flooded with tedious ODIs which are quite unmemorable yet are very wearing for the players.

Completely agree aeolium.

And we need to get back to Test matches on terrestrial BBC please

[Vile Consort]

I fear the new ball tomorrow will finish England off some way behind SA's total.

What a pity this is not a 5-test series. I thought it was miles better when they started the test series in June and had either a 5-test series or two 3-test series depending on the opposition. Instead the fixture list is flooded with tedious ODIs which are quite unmemorable yet are very wearing for the players.

Hear, hear!