New Little Red Book in France

[Simon]

Well, I'm not entirely sure...

And you are not alone in that.

Never mind. Perhaps some enlightened being will pop up with a suggestion that has a chance of working...

[mangerton]

18 months sounds way over the top to me. This is not America

I'd have given him eighteen years, for the utter contempt he has shown for the whole electorate. He has metaphorically waved two fingers in the air at us all, for no reason other than greed, and because he thought he could get away with it. This despicable thief cynically sat and wrote a false contract to account for the money he was stealing. If that's not deliberate, what is?

Eighteen months "way over the top"? What planet are you on?

[Uncle Monty]

I'd have given him eighteen years, for the utter contempt he has shown for the whole electorate. He has metaphorically waved two fingers in the air at us all, for no reason other than greed, and because he thought he could get away with it. This despicable thief cynically sat and wrote a false contract to account for the money he was stealing. If that's not deliberate, what is?

Eighteen months "way over the top"? What planet are you on?

See my other post about the cynical and self-serving press getting the public going. It certainly worked on you, didn't it?!

[Lateralthinking1]

I have the copy of the Sunday Telegraph magazine that reveals far in excess of 400 MPs fiddled their expenses. Most of them appear to have got off scot free. This includes the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister although by all accounts they acted legally. Like Ali Bongo and Paul Daniels, they glided effortlessly into a magic trick, wagging their fingers at others moralistically and astonishingly being fully believed. Whatever others think, I view such theatrics as the stances of con men. To this day, I have had nothing stolen by crooks but huge amounts have been taken from me by the misnomer that is "the system". Correction. It is a system. It is a system for fleecing the public. Having lost my job because of government policy one week ago, I count the money that MPs took and to which they were barely entitled. This alone would have kept me and many others in full employment to our retirements. As it is, I haven't got a clue how the mortgage will be paid in the long-term.

Any Questions and Any Answers today. There were several apologists for Chaytor. We heard from some how the prisons were full and how it wasn't as if this guy and all the others had been violent. Perhaps we need to refine how we view violence. I wouldn't choose to be knifed or shot on a street and the consequences of such actions can be severe or fatal. In more fortunate circumstances, though, there can be recovery in months. The consequences of unemployment on individuals, families and communities - the fact that in some situations homes will be sold and people will end up living on the streets. Now that is real violence with long-term consequences. That it should emanate from the greed and ineptitude of elected representatives is gross. Some are killed by unemployment. At the very least, those who have grabbed brazenly should consider themselves lucky not to be sentenced for manslaughter. Meanwhile, the current policies being pursued are arguably tantamount to aiding and abetting.

[Simon]

See my other post about the cynical and self-serving press getting the public going. It certainly worked on you, didn't it?!

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that the case was incorrectly reported, or that the man was not guilty of theft, or that the case shouldn't have been reported? Or a permutation of two or more of these? Or none of these at all?

[Simon]

#94 Excellent post again IMO, Lat, IIMSS.

[amateur51]

Having lost my job because of government policy one week ago ..

I'm very sorry to hear that, Lateralthinking. Best of luck with finding something new or at least in coming to terms with it.

[Lateralthinking1]

Thanks Simon. Much appreciated. Fortunately, I have an ability to switch on and off from it but I'm looking forward to the day when we can all say things are back on track. Thanks too to amateur51 - I don't intend to be a "faller" but I never expected to be here and I promise you that the impacts of it - a lot of it is the unexpected need to change a whole mindset after 25 years - would be hard to underestimate. Most go silently but I don't have the character to do that for better or for worse!

[Uncle Monty]

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that the case was incorrectly reported, or that the man was not guilty of theft, or that the case shouldn't have been reported? Or a permutation of two or more of these? Or none of these at all?

Oh, well, simply that no doubt the Telegraph thought they were being very clever in dripping this stuff out day after day, winding everyone up and no doubt selling a lot of papers. Lateral mentions the Any Questions/Any Answers today, some of which I heard in the car, and doesn't seem too impressed. But to me it seems that very few of the MPs were actually fraudulent, and most were simply acting under advice from the office. They have been discouraged from saying this, but it's pretty clear. Most of the sums involved were utterly trivial in government terms. MPs are not well paid compared with experts and professionals in the community at large. By all means let's try to devise a system of remuneration that everyone can have confidence in, but it shouldn't be the result of a baying mob whipped up by the press. As it is, Joe Public now believes all MPs should think themselves lucky to escape with their lives, let alone decent pay. Very responsible by the Telegraph et al.

As for prison, I think we jail too many people anyway. I remember even Quintin Hogg QC, not a noted liberal, saying we only put people in prison because we can't think of anything else to do with them. Assuming most of us don't want to end up with a harshly retributive penal system like the US (which, for those not impressed by moral arguments, doesn't even work in deterring or reducing crime), surely it can't be beyond the wit of person to come up with something better (more appropriate, more humane, more constructive, cheaper, etc.)?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As someone who has voted for the Liberal or Lib-Dems in every election since 1970, and would never vote Conservative, even with Bellatrix Lastrange doing the Cruciatus Curse on me, I am totally gutted by the god, Janus Cleggus, persuading his excellent party to do such incredible U-turns, all for 30 pieces of silver. Any coalition that allows Michael Gove to be an Education Secretary just has to be a Bad Thing. He's the worst thing to hit education since the discredited Chris Woodhead.

I hope PR gets through parliament, as it is the only just way to represent the people, so maybe some good will come out of this coalition.

Like Lateralthinking I suspect I too may be out of work sooner rather than later.

[Uncle Monty]

Like Lateralthinking I suspect I too may be out of work sooner rather than later.

Never mind, Alpen -- don't be selfish, just remember that wholesale unemployment is "a price worth paying" to reduce the deficit.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

[mangerton]

"But to me it seems that very few of the MPs were actually fraudulent, and most were simply acting under advice from the office."

Ah. The Nuremberg defence. So that's all right then.

"Most of the sums involved were utterly trivial in government terms."

So you're saying it's OK to steal trivial (in govt terms) sums, then?

"MPs are not well paid compared with experts and professionals in the community at large."

They're a damn sight better paid than many paid by the public purse. If they're so badly paid, why do so many people want to be MPs?

"By all means let's try to devise a system of remuneration that everyone can have confidence in, but it shouldn't be the result of a baying mob whipped up by the press."

I'm glad we've got a free press that reported on the thieves.


"As it is, Joe Public now believes all MPs should think themselves lucky to escape with their lives, let alone decent pay. Very responsible by the Telegraph et al."

Responsible to tell the truth?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Why didn't the MPs just say "sorry" and get away with it, like the bankers?

[mangerton]

Lateral, Alpen, I'm very sorry to hear about your employment woes. I may very well be joining you; thousands of my colleagues already have.

I hope, like me, that you'll be able to console yourselves with the thought that our leaders in the Houses of Greed are selfless individuals who work long hours and for many days for a mere pittance for the public weal.

I know that I lose sleep at night, worrying where my MP's next meal is to come from.