New Little Red Book in France

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Precis! Indignez Vous!

[french frank]

Oh dear! :)

I suppose that what may appear a nasty fact to some may appear otherwise to others.

Perhaps it's more shrugging off responsibility. Not my problem. Arguably the German public was less culpable at a time when each individual was alone. To try to say or do anything was to run the risk of getting the same treatment. There was no effective way to organise. Those who could make small contributions on their own, unknown to all but the beneficiaries, often did.

But this merely illustrates the unwisdom of introducing comparisons with the Nazis - that's what people seize on, for one reason or another, and the key point is lost. Hessel, with close experience of both the Resistance and the concentration camps, could perhaps be forgiven for being unable to rid himself of the memories. But that isn't his point. Nor is 'slaughter and violence'. It's more a call for collective social responsibility, caring about social injustice.

[Simon]

Getting upset about it will achieve precisely nothing. Hot air butters no parsnips, as they say. (Well, they don't actually, but you know what I mean).

That's why I find all this ranting so wearing: I'm a pragmatist, a realist. We have to work with the world as it is, not as we might wish it were. Real change comes slowly, through people quietly and consistently working away to do what is right and standing up for decency and integrity. And there are miilions who do just that. I expect most of us here try.

Tearing down world capitalism and blaming the West or Israel won't help. Getting our own little local parts of the world put in order or improved, where we can have some influence, will.

[sigolene euphemia]

Insightful reads

"Five Plants that Changed the World"
Henry Hobhouse

is this not slaveocracy ?

have read x 2 and I often give this book as a gift

~

Contemporary Slavery in the UK: Overview and Key Issues, York University
G Craig, A Gaus, M Wilkinson, K Skrivvankova, A McQuade

in my reading stack

[amateur51]

Getting upset about it will achieve precisely nothing. Hot air butters no parsnips, as they say. (Well, they don't actually, but you know what I mean).

That's why I find all this ranting so wearing: I'm a pragmatist, a realist. We have to work with the world as it is, not as we might wish it were. Real change comes slowly, through people quietly and consistently working away to do what is right and standing up for decency and integrity. And there are miilions who do just that. I expect most of us here try.

Tearing down world capitalism and blaming the West or Israel won't help. Getting our own little local parts of the world out in order or improved, where we can have some influence, will.

I disagree that real change comes slowly: the revolutionary moment is followed by consolidation perhaps but you fly in the face of recent change, Simon.

I repeat: 'The suffragettes used slaughter and violence, Simon. The fags and trannies at The Stonewall Inn? The anti-apartheid movement? Montgomery? Gdansk?

'But silly posturings like this, however well-meaning, will do no good, nor will violence. ' - really?'

[french frank]

Tearing down world capitalism and blaming the West or Israel won't help. Getting our own little local parts of the world out in order or improved, where we can have some influence, will.

I take it you stil haven't read the work, Simon? I wondered why you were instantly so hostile - you have a bit of a Reds Under The Bed reaction. This is The Guardian's take. A critique, please?

Edit: I would add that I think Assouline is right in criticising the amount of space given over to the Palestinian/Israeli situation.

[Simon]

No I haven't read it all, but I've read bits of it quoted elsewhere. The point is that it isn't new! It's the usual left liberal stuff trotted out this time by an old war hero - who is right about some of what he says and wrong about other bits - in my view. After all, age doesn't confer omniscience. What he says will be supported by a certain section of France - and Britain - and this MB! - and viewed with indulgence but perhaps rather wearily by another.

[amateur51]

No I haven't read it all, but I've read bits of it quoted elsewhere. The point is that it isn't new! It's the usual left liberal stuff trotted out this time by an old war hero - who is right about some of what he says and wrong about other bits - in my view. After all, age doesn't confer omniscience. What he says will be supported by a certain section of France - and Britain - and this MB! - and viewed with indulgence but perhaps rather wearily by another.

Which bits is he right about and which bits is he wrong about Simon?

Engage with us (and him)!

If there's any of the hot air that you're complaining about, I know where I feel it's coming from at the moment because you refuse to be specific.

[french frank]

One of the thing's I've noticed. On absolutely every forum I've ever been on, a very, very, high percentage of people have written to the effect that their favourite political number is, say, 4, 5, 6 or 7.

Then at the General Election everyone suddenly goes blank and says "oh dear me, what shall I choose, will it be number 1, 2, or 3?" then places a cross against 1, 2 or 3.

A minute after the result is declared, there's a rush to the keyboards to moan about 1, 2 and 3 getting all the votes and this goes on persistently for five years until the whole charade begins again. Can someone explain to me please what this is all about?

Well, let's tie this up with Hessel's call Indignez-Vous! When it comes to a general election, people don't vote 4, 5, 6 or 7 because in a First Past The Post system it's seen as a wasted vote. Which it is.

So now the big parties which benefit from FPTP are ganging up to try and prevent any change when the referendum is held in May. How many people here think the voting system should be changed? And how many are working actively for it to happen?

[sigolene euphemia]

I may certainly be off topic,

but may I suggest the view of this film

"Waltz with Bashir" About Ari Folman who in 1982 was a 19-year-old infantry soldier in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

I love the music of UK resident born Germany, composer, violist, pianist, Max Richter. In particular 'Blue Notebooks'. That is how I came to learn of this film.

sigolene

[Lateralthinking1]

That film does sound interesting. I will try to see it.

French Frank says "Well, let's tie this up with Hessel's call Indignez-Vous! When it comes to a general election, people don't vote 4, 5, 6 or 7 because in a First Past The Post sytem it's seen as a wasted vote. Which it is. So now the big parties which benefit from FPTP are ganging up to try and prevent any change when the referendum is held in May. How many people here think the voting system should be changed? And how many are working actively for it to happen?"

I very much understand the sentiment. However, there is something self-defeating about viewing any vote as a wasted vote. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The default position vote must win. Yes, I accept that many parties are way back at the starting line and that they are at a disadvantage because their votes are geographically spread. Nevertheless, we heard such things for many years from the Liberals and the Nationalists. Now the argument is less focussed on power and more focussed on fairness. As for me, I voted for something other than the Big Three knowing that it was like throwing money down the drain
but it didn't feel a waste to me. I supported the candidate's main objectives. It would have been a waste to hand my "election money" to those who were undeserving of my support.

I have always supported PR. The events of 2010 have led to me questioning that position. I really don't want endless governments like this dismal one, nor would I want to see Lib Lab governments as they would inevitably be now. So much for my policy stances. PR would still get my support on the basis of the fairness argument. Sad then that all we are likely to be offered is AV which really isn't PR in any recognizable sense. Actually, I feel it is one big con. When the minor differences it would make are made clear to the general public, they may well reject it, and the country will be told "you had your chance - that's it for the next 30 or 40 years". If they do accept it, not a great deal will change. Either way, they win and we lose.

[french frank]

I don't want to divert the discussion to one on PR (on which I could say a lot more!) - merely demonstrate that even when people have some concept that something is wrong, busted, they still aren't inclined to do anything about it. "I'm a pragmatist, a realist. We have to work with the world as it is, not as we might wish it were." But in some matters, nothing does change.

[Lateralthinking1]

Yes, sure, that's fair. I understand your position on those points. I'm just very disappointed by what has happened politically in the last few years.

[amateur51]

Well, let's tie this up with Hessel's call Indignez-Vous! When it comes to a general election, people don't vote 4, 5, 6 or 7 because in a First Past The Post system it's seen as a wasted vote. Which it is.

So now the big parties which benefit from FPTP are ganging up to try and prevent any change when the referendum is held in May. How many people here think the voting system should be changed? And how many are working actively for it to happen?

What I need is some boffin to tell me how the last election might have worked out if we'd had AV. Would it have avoided this current unmandated shambles? (I know it isn't possible to do this, before any sparko points this out - it's just that this's what I want )

And has anyone else noticed how the 'scandal', of all those people who turned up to vote late on at the last General Election and who were denied a vote, has quietly disappeared from view? Something like that occurs, and then the powers-that-be want to change the voting system, which would not have affected that particular event. Is it any wonder if ordinary people just throw up their hands and trudge off in the opposite direction?

[amateur51]

Good points, french frank & lateral.

I'd be intersted in what you think might be done to change this.

Other countries make voting compulsory which I'd be in fabour of, but only if it were possible to vote 'NOTA' (None Of The Above); and above a certain percentage the NOTA vote would render the ballot invalid. Otherwise compulsory voting doesn't changwe much, does it.

There has to be the possibility of public dissent or even civil disobedience being registered, in my view. The professional politicians, from which we've suffered for far too much for far too long, need to be shaken up.