Higgs' Boson? - We Have A Discovery

[Guest]

The announcement by Rolf Heuer, director-general of Cern,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18701200

and a delightful response from Peter Higgs "a remarkable thing that has happened in my lifetime!" (he first wrote about the possibility of the existencve of the Higgs'Boson in the early 1960s)

[mercia]

please could someone explain this discovery to me ......... in simple language

[amateur51]

please could you explain this discovery to me ......... in your own words

It's one of the great scientific discoveries, mercs. Peter Higgs identified the need for the existence of such a particle in 1964, I think, in order to explain how everything in the known world has mass.

And so for decades scientists in CERN in Switzerland and in the USA principally have been striving to 'find it'
by accelerating particles and causing them to collide, in the hope/anticipation that the HB would be thrown out. Inevitably it is only around for a very short period so 'spotting' it was very difficult.

Through co-operation at CERN and in USA generations of scientists have a been able to narrow down where on the spectrum the HB might be until the remaining field became relatively manageable. However in a Horizon programme (I think) that I drew attention to a while back, Dr Jim Al-Khalili interviewed a CERN scientist who said that although it would be wonderful iof they did find the HB in this narrow band, a negative result would be just as wonderful because it would mean going back to the drawing board albeit with huge amount of knowledge gained from the chase to date.

That's it in my own words, mercs - full of holes as you can see .

Go to other BBC Science pages for a more detailed (and more accurate) description of the why, how and so what?

[Serial_Apologist]

It's one of the great scientific discoveries, mercs. Peter Higgs identified the need for the existence of such a particle in 1964, I think, in order to explain how everything in the known world has mass.

And so for decades scientists in CERN in Switzerland and in the USA principally have been striving to 'find it'
by accelerating particles and causing them to collide, in the hope/anticipation that the HB would be thrown out. Inevitably it is only around for a very short period so 'spotting' it was very difficult.

Through co-operation at CERN and in USA generations of scientists have a been able to narrow down where on the spectrum the HB might be until the remaining field became relatively manageable. However in a Horizon programme (I think) that I drew attention to a while back, Dr Jim Al-Khalili interviewed a CERN scientist who said that although it would be wonderful iof they did find the HB in this narrow band, a negative result would be just as wonderful because it would mean going back to the drawing board albeit with huge amount of knowledge gained from the chase to date.

That's it in my own words, mercs - full of holes as you can see .

Go to other BBC Science pages for a more detailed (and more accurate) description of the why, how and so what?

I thought only Christians had mass...

[amateur51]

I thought only Christians had mass...

Gertcha!

[MrGongGong]

I thought only Christians had mass...

A Higgs boson walks into a church.
The priest says, “We don’t allow Higgs bosons in here.”
The Higgs boson replies, “But if I’m not here, how will you have Mass?”

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

to which the priest replied if you have mass how can you be here?

[french frank]

please could someone explain this discovery to me ......... in simple language

The Telegraph has a step-by-step guide.

I thought only Christians had mass...

Well, they do call it the 'God particle'.

[scottycelt]

I thought only Christians had mass...

You've obviously never been to North Uist ...

[Budapest]

They appear to have found a new particle at CERN (all good stuff for science and humanity) yet this particle is nowhere near to being confirmed as the Higgs boson. The hype today reminds me of the 'cold fusion' stuff a number of years ago.

The Higgs boson is an incredibly complex mathematical construct, as indeed a lot of particle physics is. When it comes to what they've been doing at CERN, it's not a case of making the theory fit the facts, but more a case of making the facts fit the theory.

Don't get me wrong, particle physics is very important (for instance, a digital computer can only work because of quantum phenomena - without this stuff no one would be able to use computers that allow you to post on forums like this). However, the Standard Model, of which the Higgs boson is a kind of last piece in the jigsaw puzzle, is a very, very long way from explaining life, the universe and everything.

[Serial_Apologist]

They appear to have found a new particle at CERN (all good stuff for science and humanity) yet this particle is nowhere near to being confirmed as the Higgs boson. The hype today reminds me of the 'cold fusion' stuff a number of years ago.

The Higgs boson is an incredibly complex mathematical construct, as indeed a lot of particle physics is. When it comes to what they've been doing at CERN, it's not a case of making the theory fit the facts, but more a case of making the facts fit the theory.

Don't get me wrong, particle physics is very important (for instance, a digital computer can only work because of quantum phenomena - without this stuff no one would be able to use computers that allow you to post on forums like this). However, the Standard Model, of which the Higgs boson is a kind of last piece in the jigsaw puzzle, is a very, very long way from explaining life, the universe and everything.

I rather suspect this too.

[Resurrection Man]

.......

Don't get me wrong, particle physics is very important (for instance, a digital computer can only work because of quantum phenomena - without this stuff no one would be able to use computers that allow you to post on forums like this). ......

Really? Please explain or give a link to this phenomena.

[Budapest]

Really? Please explain or give a link to this phenomena.

Bloody hell, this forum is fast; but I'll attempt to give some kind of an answer before I crash out for the night.

When we talk about CERN and the Higgs particle what we are talking about is quantum mechanics (also known as quantum physics); ie, the study of sub-atomic particles.

In the early 20th century studies of sub-atomic particles threw all the laws of Newtonian/classical physics out of the window (Einstein called quantum mechanics 'spookey', and to begin with he walked away from it; although later he came up with quantum theories that are still used today in the 'Standard Model').

There are two things in quantum mechanics that are most ceased upon, because they are so dramatic. The first is particle-wave duality, which shows that matter can behave as both a particle and a wave. What this means is that the fundamental properties of matter can change (it's a bit like saying an elephant can suddenly become a blade of grass). The second is quantum superposition, which basically means that a given particle can exist at opposite ends of the universe at the same time.

Particle-wave duality and quantum superposition are not theory like the Higgs boson. They have been proven time and time again in laboratory experiments and are an accepted fact by science.

Which brings me on to computers: electronic transistors can only work because of quantum superposition (ie, particles that can exist in two or more states at the same time). Computers are filled to the brim with transistors. A computer couldn't work without them.

There's lots of other weird and wonderful stuff that comes out of quantum mechanics. For the sake of simplicity I've stuck to the two main ones.

[Lateralthinking1]

Bloody hell, this forum is fast; but I'll attempt to give some kind of an answer before I crash out for the night.

When we talk about CERN and the Higgs particle what we are talking about is quantum mechanics (also known as quantum physics); ie, the study of sub-atomic particles.

In the early 20th century studies of sub-atomic particles threw all the laws of Newtonian/classical physics out of the window (Einstein called quantum mechanics 'spookey', and to begin with he walked away from it; although later he came up with quantum theories that are still used today in the 'Standard Model').

There are two things in quantum mechanics that are most ceased upon, because they are so dramatic. The first is particle-wave duality, which shows that matter can behave as both a particle and a wave. What this means is that the fundamental properties of matter can change (it's a bit like saying an elephant can suddenly become a blade of grass). The second is quantum superposition, which basically means that a given particle can exist at opposite ends of the universe at the same time.

Particle-wave duality and quantum superposition are not theory like the Higgs boson. They have been proven time and time again in laboratory experiments and are an accepted fact by science.

Which brings me on to computers: electronic transistors can only work because of quantum superposition (ie, particles that can exist in two or more states at the same time). Computers are filled to the brim with transistors. A computer couldn't work without them.

There's lots of other weird and wonderful stuff that comes out of quantum mechanics. For the sake of simplicity I've stuck to the two main ones.

Or it could simply be a supposed external representation of egos (scientists who really matter) attempting to be weightier (gravitas en masse). I stick with my earlier thoughts. It is but a language, constrained by its own human limitations, albeit increasingly imaginative.

The elephant and the blade of grass make perfect sense to me - symbolic of an inner mind and perceived external world which are in fact one and the same, except in terms of perspective. The perspective of shared separation is of course universally human in many key respects but only because the language has been coded into all of us from the beginning.

If that language is commonly accepted and understood through communication, which in itself might better be described as hysteria, I am concerned where CERN might end up. It is a bit like playing with a ouija board. In terms of real substance, it isn't dangerous at all but that doesn't mean it won't be responsible ultimately for catastrophe.

[MrGongGong]

If that language is commonly accepted through communication which in itself might better be described as hysteria, I am concerned where CERN might end up. It is a bit like playing with a ouija board. In terms of substance, it isn't dangerous at all but that doesn't mean it won't be responsible ultimately for catastrophe.

There are many things to be concerned about in the world
I would say that CERN along with improvised music is definitely NOT one of them ................