FM switchover.....Coalition steamroller?

[Gordon]

While not wishing to decry your idea, which I'm sure would work, would it not be cheaper and easier in these days of satellites for freesat to be installed?

Yes you are right that satellite would be a solution in Lynton and I feel sure that some of the population that have sight of the satellite will have that option which has a cost but perhaps not one that is onerous for most people who really want their TV and radio. However given the terrain there may a few that can't see the satellite. I was thinking of a technical solution that terrestrial means could use to compete. As an alternative to Freeview perhaps broadband, if they have it at any decent rate, would also work for some. But if Lynton is aligned with the general population about 20% of them have no internet access at all.

I lived in two Scottish towns which were served by cable systems in the 50s and 60s. One of these (pop c 16,000) was cabled by two competing companies. The cables ran overhead from house to house. I think the weekly cost was two or three shillings!

Those were the good old days! According to Google, Lynton has a population of 2,600 a proportion of which will have reception issues. Modern economics will prevail. It's not as if it's near the edge of a large connurbation where a short extension of the cable system might be possible.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

On the TV, and specifically Lynton, my grandparents had Rediffusion in the early 1970s. A dial box on the walls of the kitchen and the living room with a series of letters A to whatever. This might have been the type of service that was discussed earlier and it is arguably a shame that it isn't available now. I don't know how it worked. Was it an early version of cable?

Yes, we had this in East Lancashire in the late '60s: it was promoted by an animated parrot called Reggie and the nice man who installed the set gave me a Reggie Rediffusion badge as a "special customer". It was a sort of "cable TV" (and Radio - all my friends were astonished that we listened to Radio on the Telly) - the stations (which included the new BBC2 - all my friends were disappointed that it wasn't in colour like the adverts claimed - so was I!) were received through wires. And, yes, a little plastic box with a dial on to choose the programmes.

[Gordon]

On the TV, and specifically Lynton, my grandparents had Rediffusion in the early 1970s. A dial box on the walls of the kitchen and the living room with a series of letters A to whatever. This might have been the type of service that was discussed earlier and it is arguably a shame that it isn't available now. I don't know how it worked. Was it an early version of cable?

Rediffusion was a cable company in the early days so it sounds likely.

The other thing I wondered was whether it would be possible to transmit the South West of England service from Wales somehow. Can it be done in theory and is the fact that it isn't down to limited capacity of one kind or another? It wouldn't necessarily reach the folks of Winsford and Simonsbath but it would probably solve a lot of problems on the north coast. That would no doubt be welcomed by the majority of hotels in the area as well as the majority of residents.

In principle a BBC SWE service stream could be added to the set on the Welsh BBC multiplex but would consume capacity that is already scarce. Similarly for the commercial ITV multiplex. Given some of the junk that is carried in the 6 multiplexes allocatng capacity for this idea would probably make more sense!! One would have thought that the hotels would be satellite fed as suggested in #101?

[Lateralthinking1]

Rediffusion was a cable company in the early days so it sounds likely.

In principle a BBC SWE service stream could be added to the set on the Welsh BBC multiplex but would consume capacity that is already scarce. Similarly for the commercial ITV multiplex. Given some of the junk that is carried in the 6 multiplexes allocatng capacity for this idea would probably make more sense!! One would have thought that the hotels would be satellite fed as suggested in #101?

I can't speak for the North Cliff or Chough's Nest but I was in the cheap one built in 1835.

It is nearer to the mountain goats and still has many of its original Victorian features.

To be slightly poetic about it, there is something mildly reassuring about these issues. It shows that there are still significant parts of Britain that are remote and where service might best be described as having character. At the same time, I would not have predicted it in an area that is one of Britain's major holiday destinations. It isn't as if they have actual mountains there!

And that figure of 20% of the population being without the internet is staggering. I find it almost impossible to believe. Plus one would have thought that given all of the Government emphasis on nationhood and natural security these days, it would want everyone to be connected and logically. No dodgy anonymous camps alongside caves out in the wild, rural terrain!

Here comes the next question. I have an old pc which whirs a lot. If I had a new pc, how much background computer noise should I expect to hear when using internet radio and television?

[Gordon]

And that figure of 20% of the population being without the internet is staggering. I find it almost impossible to believe. Plus one would have thought that given all of the Government emphasis on nationhood and natural security these days, it would want everyone to be connected and logically. No dodgy anonymous camps alongside caves out in the wild, rural terrain!

I think it includes all the disdvantaged like the deaf, blind and partially sighted etc which account for a surprising amount of the population. Not to mention elderly and aging pepople who have never needed the internet in their lives and are comfortable without it. Rural areas where broadband doesn't reach also contributes. Government is concerned that "Digital Britain" needs these lacunae to be filled somehow.

Here comes the next question. I have an old pc which whirs a lot. If I had a new pc, how much background computer noise should I expect to hear when using internet radio and television?

The whirring suggests the power supply cooling fans which will have been working harder lately in the hotter weather or, worse, the hard disc bearings!! If it's old then a squirt of WD40 on the fan bearings at the back of the PC might help!! The latter is unlikely as by then you'd be noticing other problems. I have a Dell PC and one of its side panels will resonate and buzz unless I keep a dob of BluTak in the right place!!! I don't use it for listening to radio.

If you intend using internet radio you don't have to be near a PC and its noise. There are stand alone radios that can use wireless [WiFi] from your router to get the services. Also similarly TVs that can access via WiFi without a PC and its noise.

[Lateralthinking1]

Gordon, I thought the 20% equalled no reach. Thanks for the clarification.

BluTak and WD40? Blimey! I only buy food but might need to break my rule and get an internet radio.

Like your pc, mine is a Dell. I used to say that it was IT's equivalent of a Ford. Now it's a Lada.

[Gordon]

Looking again at Lynton these photos might illustrate the problem: here's the town and surrounding area:



The Courtisbury transmitter [photo] is about 2kM East of Lynton on high ground [see town and surrounding view] but it only retransmits the top 3 multiplexes [the 2 BBC and ITV PSBs] at around 42 Watts compared to the main transmitters at 20 kWatts [Carmel and Huntshaw Cross] or 100 kWatts [Wenvoe and Mendip]!!



It seems to fire along the cliff line towards the town [see this photo looking West, the transmitter is just up the hill to the left of the camera] and so has to miss some of it:



The photos show that much of the town is not in line of sight of this transmitter there being a number of deepish valleys that are hidden. UHF doesn’t go around corners very well. The Chough’s Nest might actually be OK!!!

[Dave2002]

Here comes the next question. I have an old pc which whirs a lot. If I had a new pc, how much background computer noise should I expect to hear when using internet radio and television?

Re having a new computer, it will depend on the model, and how well it has been designed and made. New iMacs for example make virtually no noise. Some new PCs are also very quiet, but this is unfortunately not universal, and some brand new ones are still quite noisy. My iMac now makes an audible noise, but (1) it is several years old, (2) I haven't cleaned out the air ducts, and (3) most of the noise actually comes from an attached external USB 3.0 1 Gbyte disc drive which I use with Time Machine. By the standards of many PCs it is still quiet.

Gordon's suggestions are interesting, though I'd try cleaning out the dust first before squirting WD40 inside. If you can open up the case then you should be able to carefully use a vacuum cleaner round the fans, and any cooling fins. There are utilities which may allow you to monitor the CPU temperature. The neat thing is to try to install them before cleaning just to get used to how they work, then do the dust cleaning. When I did this to one of my PCs a few years ago the cpu temperature dropped around 10 degrees I recall, though to some extent the temperature also depends on how much processing is going on. There are a few programs which can raise the cpu temperature very rapidly because they are so processor intensive. It could be scary running one of those. Normally most users won't run such programs without being aware of what they are doing, but I suppose they could get on to one's machine either by accident or because of malicious action.

[Resurrection Man]

A reply to my request for an unredacted version....

I have dealt with your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

I can confirm that we do hold the information you have requested, however, this information, was provided by Ofcom to the Department, was drawn in its entirety from information available to Ofcom in the course of its activity as the broadcasting regulator. In those circumstances, the Department considers that the information is subject to the statutory bar on disclosure pursuant to section 393 of the Communications Act 2003, and thus is exempt from disclosure under section 44 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. We consider that this bar applies despite the information being collected by Ofcom as opposed to the Department.

So much for open government.

So much for the FoI Act.

So much for 'consultation'.

And they wonder why half the country can't be bothered to vote.

[Gordon]

A reply to my request for an unredacted version....

Your link in #71 seems to have disappeared!! However have a look at this if you have trouble sleeping [279 pages!!]!!

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldcomuni/100/100.pdf

I'm still slogging through it. It's the House of Lords select committee hearing about digital radio [it has TV as well but radio is in Chapters 4 onwards]. Some interesting discussion - see especially around page 122 where it says:

"The Cost Benefit Analysis of Digital Radio Migration Report prepared for Ofcom 6 February 2009º (CBA)
also brings into question if there is any public benefit to be gained from a switchover. The following letter from
Ofcom to DCMS was released with a Redacted copy of the CBA as part of a Freedom of Information request
..... The letter raises some key areas of concern for taxpayers, particularly
in the present economic climate; in short, public money could be spent with little hope of a return or benefit
to the taxpayer".

But if you want an entertaining background to this CBA from PWC and issues around its publication, see bottom of page 54 onwards. It would seem that even the select committee didn't get a copy of the original! Middle column 2 page 55:

Stewart Purvis [OfCom Partner]: ....."Indeed, I think it [ie the CBA] is now available to you. Is that right?

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: In, as they say, a redacted form."

[Resurrection Man]

Yes, it disappeared shortly after we started talking about it here and mentioning that the figure of £781 million identified as a 'benefit' by PwC to the consumer was impossible to quantify since the report was redacted. Cover up. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You know what OFCOM stands for, don't you?

Obstinately Faceless, Can't Offer Much

[Frances_iom]

Yes, it disappeared shortly after we started talking about it here and mentioning that the figure of £781 million identified as a 'benefit' by PwC to the consumer was impossible to quantify since the report was redacted. Cover up. Nothing more. Nothing less.

what a surprise- it always was somewhat shady - main thing is to identify the parties that gain and their friends who are pushing it in government (or in the Quango) - golden rule with Tories always follow the money.

[Gordon]

Yes, it disappeared shortly after we started talking about it here and mentioning that the figure of £781 million identified as a 'benefit' by PwC to the consumer was impossible to quantify since the report was redacted. Cover up. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You know what OFCOM stands for, don't you?

Obstinately Faceless, Can't Offer Much

I'm led to believe that the "missing" element of the report is some commercially sensitive data in the form of a couple of Figures supplied by a correspondent to PWC during the research. I don't think it would help clarify where £781M came from.

That figure of £781M does appear out of nowhere and some of the other figures are hard to trace with any degree of precision. To be fair the report does actually draw attention to its failings and recommends [as you would if you were a consultant] further detailed study which is why we are having a second go at it, this time with different consultants who also point to the failings of the PWC one - as you would if you were a consultant!.

I share your concern that the basis of these CBAs is insufficiently sound and the methodology obscure. I know that there are Treasury rules and economic methods to be used [the Green Book] for consistency even so these are clarity itself compared to the CBA approach taken so far. Most people's rule of thumb, finger in the wind approach would tell them that the trend of the matter is towards negative NPV. Even PWC didn't predict pay back until 2026 and even then with some pre-requisite conditions.They're trying to measure the immeasurable or at least attempting precision where there is none.

How do you calculate a monetary value for choice of programming, say, or the cost of perceived poor sound quality? These are the real factors that the public are confronted with and that they are trying to evaluate. Everything has its price and so there is always a point at which something is worth its price, if that is low enough and the something is something that you want anyway. It seems here that some consumers don't want DAB at any price because it has no value to them.

The crude concept of "willingness to pay" seems intuitively appropriate but it's imprecise and the answers are utterly dependent on the questions and how they are put. As you say, the sample size is highly dubious. Why aren't they asking people why they don't have a DAB radio - we know many of the answers, coverage and sound quality are high in the list. If you have no reception then no amount of money will make you buy one! The market so far has provided some clear indicators; a large number of consumers have voted with their wallets because they do not perceive value in DAB, primarily because they are happy with FM and the status quo. Exploring why is a good idea provided it is done intelligently and probes effectively and honestly at the reasons.

If a set is say £50 in the present market then it is not cheap enough to offset the perceived defects, given that there is a trade to be made. To me that translates into a positive £50 value to the consumer for FM!! It's a switching cost that is not bearable. Why didn't they include FM in the CBA? - after all it's the alternative so why not try and show that FM has less value than DAB? Answer: because the DRWG recommendation for the CBA didn't ask for it. The new methodology and CBA maybe should be pointed at comparison of the two systems.

From my experience of OfCom, like other government agencies, it is a curate's egg. Some of the staff are old colleagues of mine and I have great respect for their technical knowledge and skill but somehow the external results of their efforts gets encrusted by a layer or two of political dross or overburdened with externally applied pressure as a result of their regulatory role. OfCom should be an expert resource independent of government providing unbiassed advice to it. However that clear water is muddied by its role as a regulator having to execute government policy.

[Lateralthinking1]

Re having a new computer, it will depend on the model, and how well it has been designed and made. New iMacs for example make virtually no noise. Some new PCs are also very quiet, but this is unfortunately not universal, and some brand new ones are still quite noisy. My iMac now makes an audible noise, but (1) it is several years old, (2) I haven't cleaned out the air ducts, and (3) most of the noise actually comes from an attached external USB 3.0 1 Gbyte disc drive which I use with Time Machine. By the standards of many PCs it is still quiet.

Gordon's suggestions are interesting, though I'd try cleaning out the dust first before squirting WD40 inside. If you can open up the case then you should be able to carefully use a vacuum cleaner round the fans, and any cooling fins. There are utilities which may allow you to monitor the CPU temperature. The neat thing is to try to install them before cleaning just to get used to how they work, then do the dust cleaning. When I did this to one of my PCs a few years ago the cpu temperature dropped around 10 degrees I recall, though to some extent the temperature also depends on how much processing is going on. There are a few programs which can raise the cpu temperature very rapidly because they are so processor intensive. It could be scary running one of those. Normally most users won't run such programs without being aware of what they are doing, but I suppose they could get on to one's machine either by accident or because of malicious action.

Thank you Dave2002 for your very helpful comments and also to Gordon for additional information on North Devon.

[Resurrection Man]

I give you the reply in all it's lucidity

I have dealt with your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

I can confirm that we do hold the information you have requested, however, this information, was provided by Ofcom to the Department, was drawn in its entirety from information available to Ofcom in the course of its activity as the broadcasting regulator. In those circumstances, the Department considers that the information is subject to the statutory bar on disclosure pursuant to section 393 of the Communications Act 2003, and thus is exempt from disclosure under section 44 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. We consider that this bar applies despite the information being collected by Ofcom as opposed to the Department.

Ofcom is assisted in its regulatory duty by a number of powers conferred by the 2003 Act to compel the provision of information, including financial information, and the information obtained by Ofcom was through this statutory power. As such, the provision, shown below, of section 393 of the 2003 Act applies.

“(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, information with respect to a particular business which has been obtained in exercise of a power…

… is not, so long as that business continues to be carried on, to be disclosed without the consent of the person for the time being carrying out the business.”

Ofcom would therefore not be permitted to disclose the information within the scope of your request by virtue of section 393(1). Consequently it follows from that prohibition that the Secretary of State is likewise prohibited in disclosing the information by virtue of section 393(1). This view is derived from the fact that the information was obtained under powers given by the 2003 Act. Therefore if Ofcom legitimately supplies information to the Secretary of State under section 393(2), the prohibition under 393(1) would be rendered of little practical effect if the Secretary of State was then permitted to disclose that information in circumstances under which Ofcom would remain subject to the statutory bar on disclosure.

The Secretary of State is therefore subject to the same bar as Ofcom in relation to this information, and cannot avail himself of any of the exceptions at section 393(2). As the information provided to the Department, and which falls within the scope of your request, comes from information obtained through section 393(1) of the Communications Act 2003, the Department considers the information to be exempt from disclosure. As section 44 is an absolute exemption, there is no public interest test.

WHITEWASH