FM switchover.....Coalition steamroller?

[handsomefortune]

it's not often you hear the phrase 'yaba dab a don't' - but yesterday was quite convincing in terms of things not being nearly as concrete as often promoted.

yes, steve hewlett was on top form!

people listening felt thoroughly represented, unlike other subjects hewlett has to cover where he can't put his foot on the gas, put some pressure on guest's weazlespeak.

probably going to win in the long run

hope not!

surely, as salymap points out, there should be a ban on 'old' style radios, but there isn't. which might be promising .................................or just cheating, amounts to deception?

if there's a change over the same companies advertising, may as well promote a banana that receives a radio signal..... for all the good my huge, fabulously mellow-sounding bush radio will be, if dab happens.

[salymap]

it's not often you hear the phrase 'yaba dab a don't' - but yesterday was quite convincing in terms of things not being nearly as concrete as often promoted.



yes, steve hewlett was on top form!

people listening felt thoroughly represented, unlike other subjects hewlett has to cover where he can't put his foot on the gas, put some pressure on guest's weazlespeak.

probably going to win in the long run

hope not!

surely, as salymap points out, there should be a ban on 'old' style radios, but there isn't. which might be promising .................................or just cheating, amounts to deception?

if there's a change over the same companies advertising, may as well promote a banana that receives a radio signal..... for all the good my huge, fabulously mellow-sounding bush radio will be, if dab happens.

I still have the mono Sony battery radios in bedroom, bathroom and kitchen. They have clear direct sound and suit me better than my slightly bigger stereo FM radio.I have tinnitus and some hearing loss in my left ear, probably because I relied on headphones quite a lot. I don't want to lose these radios.........

[Gordon]

If FM is to disappear within the next few years it should be illegal to issue catalogues such as Argos, stuffed full of FM radios of all kinds and prices, without some sort of warning that they may soon be useless.

One would think that a good idea Sal! However, radio manufacturers and retailers are dead against that idea for the obvious reason. For as long as there is no definite decision government will not issue directives to restrict sales of old radios - the free market must be allowed to function and the consumer have free choice. Anyway there is probably some trade restriction legislation somewhere that prevents it. Even if there was a date it is not minded to do it either because of pressure from industry whose current revenues would be damaged. Out of interest no major high street retailer [other than Halfords which is interested in the in-car radio market] at all is involved in the switchover project and have repeatedly refused invitations to join. As long as the public keep buying FM they will keep supplying it.

The basic fact is that the public have not judged DAB as attractive enough and it is not all down to the technology which is a bit of a side issue. The Freeview effect of lots more choice stimulating growth has not translated to DAB.

If and when an announcemnet is made here will be a Tick scheme for DAB radios, as there was for TV, and that Tick will require the radio to do certain things and have passed defined performance tests which include DAB+. However, government is not minded [as they were not for TV] to mandate the Tick, only support it as an advisory specification that manufacturers and others can use of they want to. Some household names are not going to use the Tick; they are confident that their radios will sell on their brand even if they fail the minimum specification. Buyer beware. Many radios out there now would fail this specification. This is not unusual because there is no specification for FM radios either and never has been. A poor radio will "work" as long as it is near a transmitter; the purpose behind specifying a radio is to ensure that it will work at the service boundary too.

Not everyone, especially the elderly, is up to date with what may happen.

You are right in that point too; but I expect a much more lively public debate if and when the decision is made.

There is a glimmer of hope for disadvantaged people because there is attached to the switchover project a "consumer expert group", set up originally for the TV switchover process, whose members are drawn from many charities eg Age Concern, RNIB etc that are pressing for the switchover planning process to take note of those concerns. The weight of commercial interest is strong though and radio manufacturers are very reluctant to provide suitable features even though broadcasters like the BBC are keen to have them.

[salymap]

Thanks for that Gordon. I've just had to hunt everywhere to find my one DAB radio, a cheapish ALBA.also with FM of course. I must see if it's still working, i got fed up with the numerous presets, the running programme guide, and ditched it when they got rid of the birdsong thread, which was rather pleasant to listen to.

[retroman]

FM works perfectly well if only you leave out the Optimods, or whatever grunge-box they put in the FM feed now. DAB is an insult to the ears. HD streaming is OK, about Minidisc quality, but only gets close to what unadulterated FM could quite easily be. It's about time this "digital good, analogue bad" mindset was abolished. The secret is in the application, not the basic technology. IF ONLY adequate bit rates were used, we could be a lot happier, but of course we are locked into a first generation DAB system, which is hopeless.

[teamsaint]

FM works perfectly well if only you leave out the Optimods, or whatever grunge-box they put in the FM feed now. DAB is an insult to the ears. HD streaming is OK, about Minidisc quality, but only gets close to what unadulterated FM could quite easily be. It's about time this "digital good, analogue bad" mindset was abolished. The secret is in the application, not the basic technology. IF ONLY adequate bit rates were used, we could be a lot happier, but of course we are locked into a first generation DAB system, which is hopeless.

I have no idea if you are right....but I believe you !!

[johnb]

I have no idea if you are right....but I believe you !!

Not sure that I altogether do

Has there ever been a time when some form of dynamic range control has not been employed on Radio 3 FM? I certainly can't remember such an era. Also FM in many areas suffers from a distinctly audible noise floor even with an external aerial, not to mention the interference caused by pirate and other radio stations. Then, of course, it's frequency range only extends to 15 kHz (not that I could benefit from higher that 13kHZ at my age).

In reality R3's 320 kbps AAC-LC is just about as good as we are likely to get and IMO it beats FM hands down.

Edit: by the way anyone believing that FM is purely analogue might ask themselves how the FM signal gets distributed to the transmitters!

[teamsaint]

I do know that the AM signals are much worse than they were a few years ago.

[Resurrection Man]

Which in plain English means? PwC? Does that mean we can have £781m towards new sets and car radios?

In 2009 (IIRC), PwC were commissioned to produce a Cost Benefit Aanalysis on the migration to DAB for Ofcom. I stumbled across this paper on the web only to discover that it had been heavily redacted. This report dreamed up a notional benefit to consumers of £781million as a result of us switching off FM and moving over to DAB. I say 'dreamed up' because reading further on in the report to try and establish on what basis PwC dreamed up this figure, I discovered that the report had been heavily redacted and that any more detailed financial information removed.

Under the Freedom of Information Act, I have requested an unredacted version.

In the meantime I was going to post the link for you to the Redacted version BUT THEY HAVE REMOVED THIS DOCUMENT FROM THE WEB.

I SMELL A STINKING CONSPIRACY

Please could all those concerned about this attempt to steamroller the removal of FM write to their MP and ask that this document be reinstated back on the web. Ideally in an unredacted form

[Resurrection Man]

Salymap you are missing the key weasel clause - FM won't disappear it merely gets reallocated to ultralocal lower power stations with the BBC removed to DAB - thus most of bandwidth allocation can be reclaimed - no FM set is useless (assuming you actually want to listen to these stations which will soon follow the USA model of being a franchised bit of a national network) thus no compensation is necessary - you didn't really think that a tory gov has the good of the country at heart did you ? - you'll be thinking next that the Lib-dems are somewhat to the left of the tories.

Frances..just for clarification, it was the LAST Giovt that started this whole DAB/FM debacle off. Having said that, in their manifesto the Conservatives implied that they thought it a daft idea. However, after 'examining' ...ahem...the position, Vaizey has decided that 'it is a GOOD thing'.

[Resurrection Man]

I have now located a copy on google docs. Here http://ebookbrowse.com/redacted-ofco...-pdf-d42912975

You do need to have a Google account to view. However, I have made screen grabs and saved them on my Mac in case this document also 'disappears' and will put them on DropBox for anyone to see should this Google copy vanish.

[Frances_iom]

...Vaizey has decided that 'it is a GOOD thing'.

always follow the money - much cheaper to infuence via political support than market competion (just think of IPO laws) - remember most 'stupid' decisions are made either by straight forward corruption or more usual persuasion that the deciding politician will leave behind a lasting legacy (the blue plaque form of corruption) - making all industrial/commercial requests public via FOI would prevent much of both forms of corruption

[Resurrection Man]

Agreed johncorrigan - Steve Hewlett was on top form and the BBC guy was ... hopeless. Well worth a listen but very irritating - he's a plonker but he's probably going to win in the long run.

Agree with you 100%. The BBC guy was a prat.

[Lateralthinking1]

What is the current situation re FM switchover in other countries - the US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia?

Are we at the forefront of this change, about equal or years behind?

[Resurrection Man]

What is the current situation re FM switchover in other countries - the US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia?

Are we at the forefront of this change, about equal or years behind?

I am glad that you asked that, Lat.

http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/germany-decides-to-abandon-investment-in-dab

More details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_using_DAB/DMB

Some other countries have also abandoned DAB.