Wimbledon

[JohnSkelton]

I think Murray was just over-whelmed by being asked to vent his emotions for the cameras in a publicly 'acceptable' way.

Fair enough. Then the fault (or 'fault', depending how you look at it) rests with the machinery of immediate reaction, the need for vivid, instantaneous, and emotional response. That seems right. I wasn't really slating Murray. Just saying how I felt about it (or, perhaps, how it made me feel).

[Lateralthinking1]

Second highest viewing figures this year. Almost on a par with England v Italy, Euros 2012, and Borg v McEnroe, Wimbledon 1980.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18766874

[Ferretfancy]

If I had just played four hours of tennis at a level that most of never even begin to approach, only to lose and have a microphone handed to me seconds later, I rather think my tears might be of rage!

[french frank]

I missed a sense of it being that over the top - do many people seriously believe stuff about The Hopes of the Nation? If they do I find it depressing that The Hopes of the Nation are bound up in winning a game.

I was in WH Smith at Temple Meads station and I think the Mail had something like, 'Andy, we're all praying for you'

This is more my style. This is ... British


Last man standing: British player Henry Wilfred 'Bunny' Austin having a cup of tea after being defeated by an American

[Nick Armstrong]

This is more my style. This is ... British

Last man standing: British player Henry Wilfred 'Bunny' Austin having a cup of tea after being defeated by an American

Priceless!! Proper silver(-plate) teapot and milk jug too

And if that caption is right, I love the way they don't even name the beastly foreigner that defeated him. Just some.... American

[amateur51]

Priceless!! Proper silver(-plate) teapot and milk jug too

And if that caption is right, I love the way they don't even name the beastly foreigner that defeated him. Just some.... American

You missed the woman in the hat to Bunny's right who's clearly just slipped a much-deserved laxative powder into his tea under the approving gaze of PC497 Martindale

[Nick Armstrong]

You missed the woman in the hat to Bunny's right who's clearly just slipped a much-deserved laxative powder into his tea under the approving gaze of PC497 Martindale

An official two-minute chuckle that just gave me, ammy! Thanks! People are looking at me at my desk, wondering what I'm chortling about!

[Lateralthinking1]

If I had just played four hours of tennis at a level that most of never even begin to approach, only to lose and have a microphone handed to me seconds later, I rather think my tears might be of rage!

It could be argued that natural competitive instinct is heightened unnaturally by structured competition. In the latter, there is a compacting of aggression and defence in small environmental spaces and short time frames. Those are such a fundamental part of competitors' lives, they must become a key part of their psychology. Humour, frustration, tears and rage can all be seen as antidotes. At the same time, many more normal traits often operate almost as if in parallel. The rare sportsmanlike gesture of, say, stopping play temporarily because of an opponent's slight injury is arguably astonishing. Even rational, balanced, dialogue within minutes of a marathon appears to take some skill. However, I think it is more likely that there is a natural switch into reality during such occasions and it happens instantaneously. Given what the alternative consequences could be, that is probably just as well.

In this context, that famous football game during WW1 springs to mind. There the game itself was the normality in parallel with the really important 'game' of battle. With reference to the political present day, one only needs to look at our economic system. It requires us all to operate alongside ourselves as if we were on a court. You might criticise the interviews. Those and other Campbell style stage managed conventions can lead, if anything, to questions about the genuineness of emotions displayed. Yes, they may suggest unbridled hysteria but surely they also prompt cynicism about the substance of what is being witnessed. Is this real upset or a mixture of upset and the start of an arranged-by-committee Plan B? It's certainly good prep work for the next time.

I think the 'state of the nation' element is a hybrid. Individually, it is experienced as anything from desperation looking for hopefulness to a more or less self-satisfied ra-ra-ra. Only the latter is pure patriotism. While the majority of people probably incline to the former, those in the boxes are closer to the latter. They also see the potential for manipulation, don't you Boris Johnson. I understand and respect calls for sober reflection. Reflection can be sombre too. Cerebral cool heads know that joining the circus is not an efficient way to address harsher realities. Still, escape from those cannot be done without flight. Fantasy isn't always the release of a pressure valve but little functions ably where dreams are absent. I have no problems with an occasional side slice.

[Lateralthinking1]

I was in WH Smith at Temple Meads station and I think the Mail had something like, 'Andy, we're all praying for you'

This is more my style. This is ... British


Last man standing: British player Henry Wilfred 'Bunny' Austin having a cup of tea after being defeated by an American

Smashing photo frenchfrank. You can see that prize of a £5 gift voucher in the whites of his eyes.

[french frank]

Smashing photo frenchfrank. You can see that prize of a £5 gift voucher in the whites of his eyes.

Apparently the additional perks for competitors that year were the free tea and reduced parking charges.

[Lateralthinking1]

Apparently the additional perks for competitors that year were the free tea and reduced parking charges.

If the gods of fate got their 'a' and their 'u' mixed up, this article in the Independent appears to have been written in Bunny's era:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/tennis/marray-ends-52year-wait--and-celebrates-with-tea-7920726.html

At least the Telegraph mentions that this year's British winner took away £130,000 as well as a gift voucher. Interesting to read though about the rather ordinary incomes of the generally less well known:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/9385038/Wimbledon-2012-Jonathan-Marray-measured-up-for-stardom-after-doubles-triumph-following-years-of-despair.html

[Serial_Apologist]

It could be argued that natural competitive instinct is heightened unnaturally by structured competition. In the latter, there is a compacting of aggression and defence in small environmental spaces and short time frames. Those are such a fundamental part of competitors' lives, they must become a key part of their psychology. Humour, frustration, tears and rage can all be seen as antidotes. At the same time, many more normal traits often operate almost as if in parallel. The rare sportsmanlike gesture of, say, stopping play temporarily because of an opponent's slight injury is arguably astonishing. Even rational, balanced, dialogue within minutes of a marathon appears to take some skill. However, I think it is more likely that there is a natural switch into reality during such occasions and it happens instantaneously. Given what the alternative consequences could be, that is probably just as well.

In this context, that famous football game during WW1 springs to mind. There the game itself was the normality in parallel with the really important 'game' of battle. With reference to the political present day, one only needs to look at our economic system. It requires us all to operate alongside ourselves as if we were on a court. You might criticise the interviews. Those and other Campbell style stage managed conventions can lead, if anything, to questions about the genuineness of emotions displayed. Yes, they may suggest unbridled hysteria but surely they also prompt cynicism about the substance of what is being witnessed. Is this real upset or a mixture of upset and the start of an arranged-by-committee Plan B? It's certainly good prep work for the next time.

I think the 'state of the nation' element is a hybrid. Individually, it is experienced as anything from desperation looking for hopefulness to a more or less self-satisfied ra-ra-ra. Only the latter is pure patriotism. While the majority of people probably incline to the former, those in the boxes are closer to the latter. They also see the potential for manipulation, don't you Boris Johnson. I understand and respect calls for sober reflection. Reflection can be sombre too. Cerebral cool heads know that joining the circus is not an efficient way to address harsher realities. Still, escape from those cannot be done without flight. Fantasy isn't always the release of a pressure valve but little functions ably where dreams are absent. I have no problems with an occasional side slice.

The Western Judaeo-Christian vision sees us as internally perpetually at war with ourselves - a war between a higher self that comes by virtue of God's grace and a lower self that has only its own interest at heart. Even Freud inherited this vision of human nature, seeing the ego as precariously in control of the primitive id with the internalised parenthood image implanted as the superego, or God-granted conscience. Discipline - which is seen as what keeps us in line, conforms us to what civilisation demands for its own continuance, and ensures those of us who exercise it are more likely to win over employers offering good prospects and people seeking role models to guide the next generation - is seen as subject to constant undermining by our lower selves. The helplessness of infancy is seen as lasting throughout life: without God's grace we are headed nowhere, in this life, or, most terrifyingly, the supposed next. There is little notion of the human capacity for inner evolution, and of discipline as a means to this objective, as it is held to be in some Eastern spiritual traditions, where self-realisation through complete application to skills, whether they be swordsmanship, judo, floral arranging, calligraphy, or performing on musical instruments, is seen as equipping the metaphorical soul to what life throws at it... and in this sense realising the natural endownment that is in each and every one of us to the more caring society thereby to be brought about. What stands in the way of that realisation depends on the imediments and contradictory demands placed on the individual by the kind of society, ideologically and physically in operation. They would see societies that divorce the individual from his or her environment, and divert him or her from an understanding of this by infantilising his or her aspirations towards illusory self-images, as obstructing that individual's full potential. They would probably see the obsession with placing skills development in a competitive context that separates the individual from what he or she has in comm on with his or her fellow humans, let alone those who are less naturally so endowed, and placing that individual on a pedestal symbolic of all that is to be adulated and striven for, as our version of Original Sin - or at least part of it. They would probably have originated the idea of symbiosis, of more hands making for lighter work, and with all the technology at our hands to relieve us of hard work to devote to self-developmwent - let alone rid the world of needless poverty and seeking status and greater material riches than everybody else - would mourn the resultant self-defeating wastage that is all around.

[scottycelt]

Where's scotty when I have need of him?

Sensibly keeping very well clear, I suspect ...

This reaction to Murray's tears is a rare example of a male victim of sexism, scotty

No it isn't, it's simply a reaction to an already over-rich, strapping young sports professional behaving like a 'big girls blouse', amsey ...

[Lateralthinking1]

The Western Judaeo-Christian vision sees us as internally perpetually at war with ourselves - a war between a higher self that comes by virtue of God's grace and a lower self that has only its own interest at heart. Even Freud inherited this vision of human nature, seeing the ego as precariously in control of the primitive id with the internalised parenthood image implanted as the superego, or God-granted conscience. Discipline - which is seen as what keeps us in line, conforms us to what civilisation demands for its own continuance, and ensures those of us who exercise it are more likely to win over employers offering good prospects and people seeking role models to guide the next generation - is seen as subject to constant undermining by our lower selves. The helplessness of infancy is seen as lasting throughout life: without God's grace we are headed nowhere, in this life, or, most terrifyingly, the supposed next. There is little notion of the human capacity for inner evolution, and of discipline as a means to this objective, as it is held to be in some Eastern spiritual traditions, where self-realisation through complete application to skills, whether they be swordsmanship, judo, floral arranging, calligraphy, or performing on musical instruments, is seen as equipping the metaphorical soul to what life throws at it... and in this sense realising the natural endownment that is in each and every one of us to the more caring society thereby to be brought about. What stands in the way of that realisation depends on the imediments and contradictory demands placed on the individual by the kind of society, ideologically and physically in operation. They would see societies that divorce the individual from his or her environment, and divert him or her from an understanding of this by infantilising his or her aspirations towards illusory self-images, as obstructing that individual's full potential. They would probably see the obsession with placing skills development in a competitive context that separates the individual from what he or she has in comm on with his or her fellow humans, let alone those who are less naturally so endowed, and placing that individual on a pedestal symbolic of all that is to be adulated and striven for, as our version of Original Sin - or at least part of it. They would probably have originated the idea of symbiosis, of more hands making for lighter work, and with all the technology at our hands to relieve us of hard work to devote to self-developmwent - let alone rid the world of needless poverty and seeking status and greater material riches than everybody else - would mourn the resultant self-defeating wastage that is all around.

An interesting contribution s_a and I am not sure where to go with it. I don't fundamentally disagree with any of the components of your commentary or view as illogical the way it is structured. I might observe that those who make and enforce law are frequently not at war with themselves enough. The same is true of those involved in any form of promotion complying with norms of insufficiently challenged self-interest. If that kind of system is a parent, it is immature, however it walks and talks. It can at best have varying degrees of success in requiring discipline of the like minded while those who are inclined to higher ideals may not be undisciplined but are alienated. Being quite incapable of utilising the full strengths of each, it is arguably amoral if not immoral.

While many of us will speak of systems using the analogy of the parent, any actual parent was in essence a child of a national system as well as the child of parents. A more giving nation may as a trend encourage more giving in more parents. Currently we have bad governance and there are many ill-equipped parents. Because the system changes through the eras, the symbol of the parent changes too. So it does in the ordinary lives of individuals in any era. After infancy, parents themselves become less idolised with all the accompanying issues around security and self-sufficiency. One down to earth perspective is that we should abandon everything that might hint at the original cosy fantasy - religion, heroes, royalty, bunting. These, it will be said, are illusions which divert us from inner personal development. Certainly, they can be used darkly by the few to make the masses pliable, particularly when there is little of substance being offered. Appeals go out not to be duped by the colour. That though isn't the whole answer.

While I accept many of the sceptics' points, I also think they can be overstated. There is some historical evidence that a stick can have the ability to make people comply. While it is currently unfashionable to say so, the same is true of a carrot. Those two things are very probably the only management tools available for systems which are authoritatively immature. That, to my mind, is pretty good news. I have no problem with there being a bit of carrot and stick to all these regular 'Christmas decorations' - the investitures, the jubilees and the tournaments. They are, of course, diversions from individuals' critique and subtle nudges towards a bogus sense of belonging. But just getting others to comply is a pretty weak objective. It doesn't exactly fire up energies. You will hear some - the Mayor of London is a dubious example - who will often use the word 'inspiration'. An important concept, this, that the more mundane techniques rarely capture. It should only be a danger if it is absorbed without adequate comprehension.

The human need for inspiration is pretty basic. I would argue that it as infantile as the early dependency on others for food. Surely it is one of the principal reasons for having the arts. It is also why we might go into the countryside, have holidays or even, god forbid, take up a hobby. None of that ever starts from the inside. Now you can talk about illusory self-images, adulation and pedestals. At the same time we must consider motivation. I don't disagree that there is a problem with having a Rowan Williams, an Elizabeth Windsor and an Andy Murray. It is that one can be transported by them, albeit temporarily, into wonderland, much as a three year old would be at Disney. That is not to say that the only alternative is cynicism. You can see them for what they are and yet still feel motivated in your own more humble domain. What is often lacking in teaching is advice on appropriate application.

So, to conclude, knowing that you are being force fed compliance by people who are at most juvenile is a good reason to refuse the food. I would still prefer to accept the handout and turn it into a different recipe. Principally, that would be one that I found fulfilling. But if I really objected to the motives of those who provided it, I would also ensure they found it difficult to stomach. I would add that I rather lament the passing of the paternal state which, while imperfect and no doubt rather different from the way presented, did at least provide a framework for secure living. Contrary to common consensus, I believe it optimised functionality. It is worth noting the system we had did not arise from highly individualised self-discipline, great though that can be. Rather it arose from the view of many that certain things should be imposed to ensure that everyone had a decent something on their plates.

[Ferretfancy]

Back to the Centre Court for the moment, what's happened to the Robinson's Barley Water ? There was always a bottle on view, and the staff kept turning the label round in a futile attempt to scupper the product placement!