Two Maulings in One Day - Paxman AND Channel 4

[handsomefortune]

scottycelt - the only advantage anyone else has over you, is simply that they have read some stuff about feminism - that's all.

if i turned up on 'the roundball game thread' people would quite rightly find my contributions naive, pointless, circular and wonder what the hell i was doing there.....apart from causing trouble.

the trick is to 'know your limits'

maybe go and get yourself a boook - while there's still bookshops to brouse, and a kindly assistant to collar ....as a 20th c theory it's not rocket science, and is widely believed to actually offer a fairer system between people - (not 'ball breaking' as some may pretend).

but you may need help from a surgeon if you don't do something about your knowledge gap specifically on threads such as this one: about 'the rough and tumble of paxo and his latest 'victory'....his muscled conquest over a parched 1950s street urchin, wearing glasses....entirely alone in paxo's shiney metal news grotto'. (big rush of orchestral timpani emoticon).

[scottycelt]

Well I'm not capable of working it out. Sorry.

Good Heavens ...

Are you drawing some distinction between a literal sense and a non-literal sense of being entitled to a view? or do you mean a literal sense for the word feminism? And why do you keep putting '' around words? Is that to indicate they aren't to be taken literally?

Yes, I'm not referring to a 'view' but a 'word' ... sorry, I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. No, as you can see, I normally use a ' rather than a " as the now widespread adoption of the American use of inverted commas in the UK has now tended to blur any distinction between the two. Inverted commas are normally used to denote others' words rather than one's own, and I regret if this causes you to experience some displeasure.

Again, I don't understand whether your (for me rather strange) idea that a word - feminism - is inherently something (sexist) means that you think feminism as a a collection of theories, practices, social actions, etc. is inherently sexist. Whether what the word signifies is inherently sexist, or whether it's somehow the word itself - something about the word itself, internal to it - that is inherently sexist. The way it sounds when you say it out loud? The way it looks on a page / screen?

Yes, I think you may now have got it!! ... it's the word itself, as I'm not expected to express an opinion as to what it actually is because only feminists can possibly know and even they can't agree what 'feminism' (sorry) actually is? However, we are allowed to discuss the word itself, aren't we? In that case, I remain convinced that the word 'feminism' is inherently sexist and, if not, doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

I know, it's not good.

Well, at least we can both agree on that ...

[scottycelt]

Handsome, darling, how can I possibly brush up on my knowledge and read an authoritative boook about 'feminism' when nobody is quite sure what 'feminism' actually is ... ?

[JohnSkelton]

I remain convinced that the word 'feminism' is inherently sexist and, if not, doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

Why is the word feminism inherently sexist? - do you mean the word feminism refers to something that is inherently sexist?

I genuinely don't understand what it is you are saying. The word feminism is inherently sexist but feminism isn't? (Why does the word not make any sense whatsoever if the word isn't inherently sexist? How can a word inherently be something? Would you say the word bumblebee is inherently something? Or is it just a signifier for bumblebee, whereas feminism is something other than a signifier for feminism?).

[scottycelt]

Why is the word feminism inherently sexist? "Doesn't make any sense whatsoever" - do you mean the word feminism refers to something that is inherently sexist (that it refers to something inherently sexist?).

I genuinely don't understand what is you are saying. The word feminism is inherently sexist but feminism isn't? (Why doesn't it not make any sense whatsoever if it isn't inherently sexist? How can a word inherently be something? Would you say the word bumblebee is inherently something? Or is it just a signifier for bumblebee, whereas feminism is something other than a signifier for feminism?).

I genuinely don't understand your difficulty either ... as the word 'feminine' refers to sex/gender, then to use the word 'feminist' in the context of a belief-system is surely inherently sexist?

We don't need to know anything about raspberries, pandas' left-buttocks and bumblebees, or have handsomefortune's encyclopedic knowledge of the various strands of 'feminism', to be able to grasp that?

[Serial_Apologist]

I genuinely don't understand your difficulty either ... as the word 'feminine' refers to sex/gender, then to use the word 'feminist' in the context of a belief-system is surely inherently sexist?

We don't need to know anything about raspberries, pandas' left-buttocks and bumblebees, or have handsomefortune's encyclopedic knowledge of the various strands of 'feminism', to be able to grasp that?

If you care to define what you mean by sexism, we might, just might be able to get somewhere, scotty.

[Lateralthinking1]

One minister said: "The coalition is rotting from the bottom up.......We need to [stop it] reaching the top before 2015.

In context, that referred in part to angst in the local associations. But I agree with you. This was a party that could field a blue wombat in the shires and get it elected. Now it is all a-bubble because it can't find a half-decent saucepan lid that fits.

The election of Boris changed things. Dave raced to the cameras - "he's my best mate". It wasn't believable but Osborne felt the wind. The referendum statement now suggests Cameron's all for turning if he can ring fence the blonde one's surge. It will be "welcome to the Cabinet - you can't oppose me now". At the same time conveniently, George staggers on his umpteenth gaffe.

Voters need to know that this is the silly season. Nothing about this country is uppermost in their minds. Labour's immigration statement hasn't got any detail in it. Neither has that statement from the Tories on the EU today. They are just hoping that in implying they will give you black forest gateau, you won't possibly believe that it will be the same old slice of Hovis on your plate.

Incidentally, that is my problem with the Tanya Golds of this world. She is in the influence game and doing very nicely thank you. I'm not sure that she can adequately represent the genuinely oppressed. I have some sympathy for scottycelt. It seems to me that feminism is often more constructive when it works locally in concert with men. As soon as it does so though, it becomes more evidently a part of the battle between the haves and the have nots rather than being a feisty special entity in itself.

[scottycelt]

If you care to define what you mean by sexism, we might, just might be able to get somewhere, scotty.

Excellent question, S_A!

I'm sure we are all now going to discover that there might be some wide differences between our various definitions and meanings!

My understanding of the definition is 'favouring and promoting the interests of one sex over the other'.

I would have thought 'feminism' comes well into that category, as indeed does 'male chauvinism' or 'masculinism', which is slightly easier on the tongue, and the most logical opposite term?

[french frank]

My understanding of the definition is 'favouring and promoting the interests of one sex over the other'.

I would have thought 'feminism' comes well into that category, as indeed does 'male chauvinism' or 'masculinism', which is slightly easier on the tongue, and the most logical opposite term?

Compare with the formations 'racist', 'sexist', 'ageist' &c. which also involve concerns about equality.

Is there an equivalent that means 'championing the cause of specific disadvantaged group X', as feminism appears to?

[amateur51]

Excellent question, S_A!

I'm sure we are all now going to discover that there might be some wide differences between our various definitions and meanings!

My understanding of the definition is 'favouring and promoting the interests of one sex over the other'.

I would have thought 'feminism' comes well into that category, as indeed does 'male chauvinism' or 'masculinism', which is slightly easier on the tongue, and the most logical opposite term?

Fair effort, imho scotty - - but a major component missing.

I'd define sexism as a value system that believes that the members of one gender are inherently superior to the members another gender and have the power through their dominance in various social institutions to impose that view.

[Serial_Apologist]

Fair effort, imho scotty - - but a major component missing.

I'd define sexism as a value system that believes that the members of one gender are inherently superior to the members another gender and have the power through their dominance in various social institutions to impose that view.

I am sure scotty really agrees with that, ams - familiar as one is with his feelings about those who discriminate against others on the grounds of their freely chosen religious views.

[JohnSkelton]

My understanding of the definition is 'favouring and promoting the interests of one sex over the other'.

I would have thought 'feminism' comes well into that category

That's because you think everything is about MEN, scottycelt. So feminism inevitably only exists in relation to MEN. But that's not the case (which, to be really annoying, is something you'd know if you knew anything about feminism; about feminist literature, feminist art, feminist history, etc.).

[ahinton]

That's because you think everything is about MEN, scottycelt. So feminism inevitably only exists in relation to MEN. But that's not the case (which, to be really annoying, is something you'd know if you knew anything about feminism; about feminist literature, feminist art, feminist history, etc.).

Broadly speaking, I take your views here and understand why you're questioning scotty's on this but, that said, "feminism" remains, to me, another one of those "isms" and its very rise and continued existence represent a serious indictment of the wholly unacceptable ways in which many members of the male population have treated many of the female ones in the past.

[Lateralthinking1]

Can I just say here that I think Margaret Bondfield, Ellen Wilkinson, Jennie Lee, Betty Boothroyd, Gwyneth Dunwoody and Caroline Lucas have all been outstanding MPs and that I also think Tessa Jowell has consistently been an absolute disgrace. Thanks.

[amateur51]

Can I just say here that I think Margaret Bondfield, Ellen Wilkinson, Jennie Lee, Betty Boothroyd, Gwyneth Dunwoody and Caroline Lucas have all been outstanding MPs and that I also think Tessa Jowell has consistently been an absolute disgrace. Thanks.

Margaret Hodge Chairs a lovely Public Accounts Committee too