Two Maulings in One Day - Paxman AND Channel 4

[scottycelt]

I think it's more that she feels that as a Tory Smith deserves no sympathy.

Funny that ... that was my impression as well. ...

It was almost as if Tory Women were the dregs of society, even worse than, Great Goddess Feminism forbid, men of all persuasions.

You'd have thought that any true feminist would have been overjoyed at the fact that Margaret Thatcher broke years of male domination and became the first female leader of a still reasonably significant world power. Something for all women to celebrate, eh?

Sadly, it would now appear that women tend to have similar divergent views as men, and, heavens, many women might actually have preferred Michael Foot.

Life can be very non-sexist and baffling at times ...

[Serial_Apologist]

That might be true. One question might be 'how do male Tory MPs behave towards other male Tory MPs?'. I have two images:

1. They club together and defend each other come what may, particularly when under attack
2. They are immensely competitive and behind all the niceties are constantly at war with each other

The next questions might be the same only with reference to Labour and the Liberal Democrats.

In "Die Rundkupfe und die Spitzkupfe" (1937) Brecht made a similar point about the ruling class, from which most Tory ministers emanate to this day. I don't have the text but in so many words he pointed out that in boom times they are all at each others' throats competitively, whereas in times of recession, hostility to their power and privilege from the "lower orders" all of a sudden brings them together in common cause.

Brecht's play was set to some great songs by Hanns Eisler; unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any youtube examples to link to.

[Lateralthinking1]

In "Die Rundkupfe und die Spitzkupfe" (1937) Brecht made a similar point about the ruling class, from which most Tory ministers emanate to this day. I don't have the text but in so many words he pointed out that in boom times they are all at each others' throats competitively, whereas in times of recession, hostility to their power and privilege from the "lower orders" all of a sudden brings them together in common cause.

Brecht's play was set to some great songs by Hanns Eisler; unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any youtube examples to link to.

That is spot on. By the way, we were wrong. Tony Blair doesn't avoid paying tax:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...tony-blair-tax

[JohnSkelton]

You'd have thought that any true feminist would have been overjoyed at the fact that Margaret Thatcher broke years of male domination and became the first female leader of a still reasonably significant world power.

You would, but you're not a feminist are you? So you are thinking from a position of ignorance.

Sadly, it would now appear that women tend to have similar divergent views as men, and, heavens, many women might actually have preferred Michael Foot.

Life can be very non-sexist and baffling at times ...

Or differently divergent views, perhaps? I'd imagine the only people who ever believed all women thought alike were droning sexist bores. Why would you think it's a feminist viewpoint that all women are the same?

[scottycelt]

You would, but you're not a feminist are you? So you are thinking from a position of ignorance.

Good Morning, John ...

In exactly the same way as you are not me and are therefore 'thinking from a position of ignorance'' when you apparently claim to know what and how I am thinking?

Or differently divergent views, perhaps? I'd imagine the only people who ever believed all women thought alike were droning sexist bores. Why would you think it's a feminist viewpoint that all women are the same?

Well, in your own pseudo-Marxist mind, whatever I think on the subject is deemed ignorant as I'm not a feminist and therefore have no business thinking what 'a feminist viewpoint' might be.

However, if I dare be bold enough to indeed think and actually answer the question, I've never said that feminists claim all women are the same, though some feminists themselves certainly do give that impression. I merely noted (like another poster) that Gould's rant seemed to have more to do with politics than gender, and when it comes to 'feminism' that is almost always the case.

Feminism has always been largely a political project so these things are hardly surprising, as is your overly-defensive stance on the subject here far exceeding anything we heard from Chloe Smith on television.

Claiming oneself to be a 'feminist' or 'masculinist' is one of the most truly sexist utterances imaginable, so I'm somewhat loathe to take any lectures on sexism from those who claim to be either of those, however droningly boring that may be.

[JohnSkelton]

Good Morning, John ...

In exactly the same way as you are not me and are therefore 'thinking from a position of ignorance'' when you apparently claim to know what and how I am thinking?

Well, in your own pseudo-Marxist mind, whatever I think on the subject is deemed ignorant as I'm not a feminist and therefore have no business thinking what 'a feminist viewpoint' might be.

However, if I dare be bold enough to indeed think and actually answer the question, I've never said that feminists claim all women are the same, though some feminists themselves certainly do give that impression. I merely noted (like another poster) that Gould's rant seemed to have more to do with politics than gender, and when it comes to 'feminism' that is almost always the case.

Feminism has always been largely a political project so these things are hardly surprising, as is your overly-defensive stance on the subject here far exceeding anything we heard from Chloe Smith on television.

Claiming oneself to be a 'feminist' or 'masculinist' is one of the most truly sexist utterances imaginable, so I'm somewhat loathe to take any lectures on sexism from those who claim to be either of those, however droningly boring that may be.

Feminism is political, yes. So why should it be surprising that feminists didn't jump and down delightedly at Margaret Thatcher becoming Prime Minister? No feminist would make the distinction you appear to be making between politics and gender. Gender isn't only about different naughty bits

I'm not being defensive, as far as I'm aware, overly or otherwise. What subject am I being defensive about? If you mean Chloe Smith interviewed by Jeremy Paxman I didn't see it, I haven't seen it, and I don't have a view on it. And haven't expressed one here, as far as I'm aware.

Is a 'masculinist' someone who likes being spanked? I've vaguely heard the term before. For someone to call themselves a feminist might be "one of the most truly sexist utterances" you can imagine, but that's not the same as it being "one of the most truly sexist utterances imaginable" or indeed sexist in any place other than your imagination.

The rest of your post is so weird I'll charitably assume you've started drinking early .

[amateur51]

Feminism has always been largely a political project so these things are hardly surprising, as is your overly-defensive stance on the subject here far exceeding anything we heard from Chloe Smith on television.

Claiming oneself to be a 'feminist' or 'masculinist' is one of the most truly sexist utterances imaginable, so I'm somewhat loathe to take any lectures on sexism from those who claim to be either of those, however droningly boring that may be.

You do come out with some stuff sometimes, scotty

Re your observation that 'Feminism has always been largely a political project' why would this surprise you? Has Christianity, nay almost any religion, not always been a political project?

[Flosshilde]

Originally Posted by JohnSkelton
You would, but you're not a feminist are you? So you are thinking from a position of ignorance.
Good Morning, John ...

In exactly the same way as you are not me and are therefore 'thinking from a position of ignorance'' when you apparently claim to know what and how I am thinking?

I think John is speaking from a position of knowledge, based on your posts, Scotty.


As far as Margaret Thatcher is concerned, she claimed to owe nothing to women in achieveing her position (probably quite accurately, considering the role of women in the Tory party at the time). She made plenty of refernces to her father, Alderman Roberts, in explaining how she developed her political ideology, but, despite her claim to base her economic principles on good houekeeping, ignored for the most part her mother, who, I assume, was busy putting those principles of good housekeeping into practice.

[scottycelt]

Feminism is political, yes. So why should it be surprising that feminists didn't jump and down delightedly at Margaret Thatcher becoming Prime Minister? No feminist would make the distinction you appear to be making between politics and gender. Gender isn't only about different naughty bits

I'm not being defensive, as far as I'm aware, overly or otherwise. What subject am I being defensive about? If you mean Chloe Smith interviewed by Jeremy Paxman I didn't see it, I haven't seen it, and I don't have a view on it. And haven't expressed one here, as far as I'm aware.

Is a 'masculinist' someone who likes being spanked? I've vaguely heard the term before. For someone to call themselves a feminist might be "one of the most truly sexist utterances" you can imagine, but that's not the same as it being "one of the most truly sexist utterances imaginable" or indeed sexist in any place other than your imagination.

The rest of your post is so weird I'll charitably assume you've started drinking early .

Now that last sentence I'll equally 'charitably' call characteristically 'weird'

As for the whole of your own post, I'll be slightly more direct ... smart-ass stonewalling, totally devoid of substance, and just childish abuse masquerading as 'humour'...

[Northender]

I'm currently listening to 'B.H.' on Radio 4. They've been searching high and low for the Chancellor - hilarious! Apparently, he's not scheduled to appear on BBC Radio, Sky News, BBC1 (north or south of the border), Teachers' TV or indeed anywhere else. They're currently discussing his disappearance with Michael Cockerell.

[Flosshilde]

So am I - I loved the Australian inrterviewthey just broadcast - 'I don't know what the PM said, but I'm sure she's right'

[scottycelt]

I think John is speaking from a position of knowledge, based on your posts, Scotty..

... are you now seriously suggesting that 'John' is to be the official and only 'knowledgeable' interpreter of all of my posts on this forum, Flossie ... ?!!

As for Maggie, yes I would have thought that any true feminist would have welcomed the election of the first female UK PM, irrespective of their political views. Little point in calling oneself a 'feminist' otherwise, unless fair opportunities for women should only apply to those with a particular political stance?

I can't see what's particularly outrageous by simply pointing out these things, however much you, John and Amsey may disapprove of hearing or reading it.

[amateur51]

As for Maggie, yes I would have thought that any true feminist would have welcomed the election of the first female UK PM, irrespective of their political views. Little point in calling oneself a 'feminist' otherwise, unless fair opportunities for women should only apply to those with a particular political stance?

It wasn't the election that was the problem, scotty, it was the subsequent performance which quite likely set back the cause of feminism several decades because of the confusion aroused in people like yourself.

Are you on pea-podding duty this morning, scotty? You seem to be far from your usual equable temperament

[JohnSkelton]

Little point in calling oneself a 'feminist' otherwise, unless fair opportunities for women should only apply to those with a particular political stance?

But you don't call yourself a feminist (or a 'feminist', in your formulation) so why do you keep insisting you know what feminism has to mean and what a feminist should think in order to be a feminist? That was all: what you think about anything is your business, as long as you don't claim it has some authority over other people's thoughts. Feminist views of Margaret Thatcher are the business of feminists, who are likely to have given the matter thought from a feminist perspective. (Note: not women's views of Margaret Thatcher. Feminists' views of Margaret Thatcher). "Given the matter thought from a feminist perspective" - unlike you, since your perspective isn't that of a feminist, and since on occasions you seem to be saying that feminism is a kind of sexism your perspective doesn't seem to be much informed by a knowledge of feminism (or one that goes any further than a few cartoon-ish stereotypes of what feminism is about. Think middle period Benny Hill).

As a start, here's the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy 'Topics in Feminism': http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-topics/

[scottycelt]

It wasn't the election that was the problem, scotty, it was the subsequent performance which quite likely set back the cause of feminism several decades because of the confusion aroused in people like yourself.

Are you on pea-podding duty this morning, scotty? You seem to be far from your usual equable temperament

Ahhhhhhhh ... that's better ... a reasonably honest answer, amsey!

So that's it then ... 'women's rights' only should be applied to those who take a similar political line to yourself? As for for Tory women, well they can, well .. er .. simply sod off?

Actually, as always, the records will show it wasn't I who first disturbed any temperamental equilibrium this morning, amsey ... but, don't worry, I'm enjoying this thoroughly!