Income in Classical Music and Jazz (Britain)

[Tony Halstead]

Lateralthinking1:

(c) Low Profile Conductor

I am such a person.
During the year April 1st 2011 to March 31st 2012 I conducted a total of 10 concerts - a mixture of professional, semi-professional and amateur orchestras.
My total fees, earned exclusively from conducting - including travel and subsistence expenses - were about £4500.

[MrGongGong]

Hornspieler

I wasn't suggesting that Doctors were underpaid
I hope the surgeon who whipped my kidney out was well rewarded for his efforts

though as a freelance musician it's sometimes hard to have much empathy for some of those whom we often seem to be paying to have lengthy luxury "retirement"

[Osborn]

There is another side to this. Reviewing Spencer Myer at the Wigmore Hall, Michael Church wrote (7/5/2012) in The Independent:

"As each new player joins the fray, one remembers the imbalance between the seven hundred pianists listed in the British Music Yearbook, and the thirty who make a decent living from concerts."

[Lateralthinking1]

Thank you to salymap for comments about composers and musicians, waldhorn for information about conducting, Osborn for highlighting the two tiers of pianists and Serial_Apologist for his comments on jazz. Thanks too to John Skelton for some very interesting articles, not least on Bolivar, the figures for Glass and Reich, and questions about the potential for cooperatives.

On the politics, I can only, ahinton, reiterate my comments that this isn't about envy. To look at the very narrow issue of tax, I'm concerned that money saved by Barlow, Carr etc is the same money that would prevent, say, deaths and suffering through the closure of one of just four A and E Departments serving millions in South London. And to hornspieler, I will say that while I have a few doubts about the level of GPs' pensions, by far the biggest moral principle I am applying to the strike today is the one about honouring commitments. Introducing new arrangements for new entrants is one thing. When the Government so consistently reneges, Miliband is at least right to imply that politicians lose all credibility in expecting morals to be applied to everyone else.

Calum's "this is principally to do with the audience" is more challenging. I don't fully accept it because I think it is impossible to separate artistic expression from other expression in the artist. In the main, those involved in, say, insider trading, basic banking or football rarely produce wonderful symphonies. Art is communication. A closed door on income might at its more palatable suggest the importance of privacy (although many of us have always had our income in the public domain). At its more intriguing, it could imply guilt or a sense in the artist that the art is being diluted by the wealth. This is just as important as whether someone was orphaned, suffered from regular depression or lived a colourful life in Paris while an unloved wife was abandoned at home.

That is not to say that the attitudes of the audience aren't important. Every communicating musician needs listeners and each musician works in place and time, where changing circumstances can affect the way any work is perceived. But there are also access issues. At the very time when some might argue that the internet etc bring greater access to wider material, choices for those who are not natural seekers are being narrowed by the merging of easy access and hype. In fact, it is that merger which now largely defines how people perceive connection and it is becoming a really artificial thing. It says little to me about art.

I feel that greater teaching is required. We need to grow a culture of limitless search. Then we need to alter the organisational structures in the markets radically. For example, every participant on Young Musician of the Year will develop into middle and older age on individual tram lines, each with a distinct colour of personal change and collaboration. There, and elsewhere, including in popular culture, it should be possible for everyone to follow the lines easily. The organisation should be geared accordingly with development paths. It needs to be web like, as indeed the net is, rather than mountain like. That would naturally diminish the differentials and lead to greater artistic engagement. Better writers, better performers, better audiences and better lives.

[Serial_Apologist]

choices for those who are not natural seekers are being narrowed by the merging of easy access and hype.

A very good point indeed, Lat, and one which I think had thus far not been made. One could further add, the spirit of enquiry once fostered by Radio 3.

[MrGongGong]

A very good point indeed, Lat, and one which I think had thus far not been made. One could further add, the spirit of enquiry once fostered by Radio 3.

There's always Resonance and UBUWEB ......... if only I had those as a teenager

[Hornspieler]

....On the politics, I can only, ahinton, reiterate my comments that this isn't about envy. To look at the very narrow issue of tax, I'm concerned that money saved by Barlow, Carr etc is the same money that would prevent, say, deaths and suffering through the closure of one of just four A and E Departments serving millions in South London. And to hornspieler, I will say that while I have a few doubts about the level of GPs' pensions, by far the biggest moral principle I am applying to the strike today is the one about honouring commitments.

I agree with what you say, Lateralthinking1, but I fear that any money retrieved by the taxman would be far more likely to be spent on more arms, nuclear submarines and planeless aircraft carriers.

....That is not to say that the attitudes of the audience aren't important. Every communicating musician needs listeners and each musician works in place and time, where changing circumstances can affect the way any work is perceived. But there are also access issues. At the very time when some might argue that the internet etc bring greater access to wider material, choices for those who are not natural seekers are being narrowed by the merging of easy access and hype. In fact, it is that merger which now largely defines how people perceive connection and it is becoming a really artificial thing. It says little to me about art.

To return to the original question in this thread:
To compare the income of a pensionable contracted musician with the annual income of a conductor, soloist, composer or even freelance orchestral musician is unrealistic.

A soloist has to put in many hours of work which are unpaid. The most well known of our string quartet members earn the bulk of their income playing in backing groups for pop singers or teaching at our music colleges or privately. Their considerable rehearsal time is unpaid and their annual income from their recitals as a quartet would probably put them below the official poverty line.

Composers mostly have teaching positions and write their works when the muse speaks to them. I don't believe that any creative composer starts work after breakfast and aims to complete a thousand bars by lunchtime, as some authors do with words.

The real question should be "Are the actual players (in any form of musical entertainment) paid enough and are some conductors and soloists overrated and overpaid?"
Composers rely upon royalties if their work is any good, or a day job if they fail to win commisions or teaching posts in a musical establishment. (or the BBC if neither of the previous)

An interesting debate and I feel sure that there are a lot more views to come.

Hornspieler

[ahinton]

He has never needed to make any money from any game - he comes from a wealthy family.

I know that, of course, but is that the point? He wasn't complaining about being unable to make a living from composition or even referring to his own situation vis-à-vis earning money from writing in any case but noting instead the generally parlous state of financing for composition - other people's, that is.

[Panjandrum]

From a well-known classical music blog:

"Here are the fees and associated on-costs. They are as requested by the artist's management for a single concert appearance unless otherwise stated. It should be emphasised this is simply available information and these musicians have not been identified as demanding higher than average fees. It is also worth remembering that fees charged to the most prestigious venues may be higher. Convert currencies here.

Hélène Grimaud - 16,000 euros
Kronos Quartet - 23,000 US dollars
Philip Glass - 36,000 US dollars plus transatlantic flights for solo piano concert
Patricia Kopatchinskaja - 10,000 euros
Dawn Upshaw for pair of concerts - 57,000 US dollars plus additional presentation costs.
Twelve cellists of the Berlin Philharmonic - 24,000 euros plus flights for twelve people plus twelve 'Mr Cello' seats.
The Sixteen - 14,000 pounds sterling euros plus 24 flights (includes one instrument), local transport, hire of chamber organ and one night's hotel for 23 people.
Steve Reich - 18,000 US dollars to attend a series of concerts but not perform, performance fee additional. Also requires business class transatlantic flights.

"

Not sure where Jonathan Nott stands in the pantheon of contemporary conductors but as a Lamborghini owner,presumably he does reasonably well out of his profession.

[JohnSkelton]

I know that, of course, but is that the point? He wasn't complaining about being unable to make a living from composition or even referring to his own situation vis-à-vis earning money from writing in any case but noting instead the generally parlous state of financing for composition - other people's, that is.

I doubt Carter's view of what constitutes a "living" has much to do with most people's reality, composers or not. "Elliott Cook Carter Jr. is a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning American composer ... He later held teaching posts at the Peabody Conservatory (1946–1948), Columbia University, Queens College, New York (1955–56), Yale University (1960–62), Cornell University (from 1967) and the Juilliard School (from 1972). In 1967, he was appointed a member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters. In 1981, he was awarded the Ernst von Siemens Music Prize, in 1985 the National Medal of Arts." And so on. Actually I bet he's made a handsome living from composition and related activities, through commissions, prizes, prestigious academic posts etc.

Multitudes on this planet barely subsist. Millions in this country barely scrape a living http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/key%20facts.shtml. Almost all of them aren't composers.

[Panjandrum]

Multitudes on this planet barely subsist. Millions in this country barely scrape a living http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/key%20facts.shtml. Almost all of them aren't composers.

Given the fact that the percentage of the general population who are composers is minuscule, one would not expect otherwise, would one?

[JohnSkelton]

Given the fact that the percentage of the general population who are composers is minuscule, one would not expect otherwise, would one?

Well quite. On the other hand I'd be surprised if the % of composers in this country living in poverty (using, say, the Rowntree Trust definition) isn't lower than the % of office cleaners. At least people who define themselves as composers, rather than people who compose music but who don't define themselves as composers. The situation may well be somewhat different in an area like free-improvisation.

On a wider er note I think we've now established that the fees paid to many conductors / soloists etc. are a disgrace given the difficulties others in their line of work face.

[ahinton]

I agree with what you say, Lateralthinking1, but I fear that any money retrieved by the taxman would be far more likely to be spent on more arms, nuclear submarines and planeless aircraft carriers.

Indeed - the last of these not being the kinds of drone that one might associate with bagpipes...

To return to the original question in this thread:
To compare the income of a pensionable contracted musician with the annual income of a conductor, soloist, composer or even freelance orchestral musician is unrealistic.

A soloist has to put in many hours of work which are unpaid. The most well known of our string quartet members earn the bulk of their income playing in backing groups for pop singers or teaching at our music colleges or privately. Their considerable rehearsal time is unpaid and their annual income from their recitals as a quartet would probably put them below the official poverty line.

Much of that is true and, whilst I don't think that the end result is necessarily quite as bad as you write for all such ensemble members, it's sadly not far from the truth in most cases.

Composers mostly have teaching positions and write their works when the muse speaks to them. I don't believe that any creative composer starts work after breakfast and aims to complete a thousand bars by lunchtime, as some authors do with words.

Well, some do, actually, although that probably happens rather more often when the work concerned is beinng written to commission.

The problem about composers having teaching positions is that, in a climate in which it is already well-nigh impossible for most composers to make a decent living from composition, teaching hundreds more young composers who then enter the market-place is likely only to worsen this already painfully difficult situation for almost every member of the profession. Notwithstanding my immense respect for Elliott Carter, I wonder if he ever devoted any kind of forethought to the likely outcome in the days when he, Copland and Sessions were pushing hard to get composition accepted as a subject at American universities; he did allude, I believe, to the vastly greater number of active American composers that has resulted largely from theirs (and others') successes in this regartd, but I've not heard him mention the "flooded market" problem to which this has inevitably given rise.

The real question should be "Are the actual players (in any form of musical entertainment) paid enough and are some conductors and soloists overrated and overpaid?"

It's a very difficult if not impossible question to answer in a way that would be satisfactory and agreeable to most people who have given any serious thought to such matters; whilst it is far more likely that some conductors and soloists might risk being overrated than is the case with orchestral players, who is to say and on what grounds any of them - or, indeed anyone else - might be "overpaid"?

Composers rely upon royalties if their work is any good, or a day job if they fail to win commisions or teaching posts in a musical establishment. (or the BBC if neither of the previous)

These days, composers can also derive some income from selling their scores, as self-publishing is easier now than once it was and as it's also harder for more low-profile composers to secure publishing contracts in any case; this, however, makes very little difference to the overall difficulties that most composers face in making a living from their work.

The nub of the problem here is that there are far too many people outside the profession who are prepared to harbour doubts as to whether it should even be necessary for composers to make a living from composition, which strikes me as all the more odd because some of those people who hold this bizarre view would not necessarily hold the same view about authors, poets, playwrights et al.

[JohnSkelton]

The nub of the problem here is that there are far too many people outside the profession who are prepared to harbour doubts as to whether it should even be necessary for composers to make a living from composition, which strikes me as all the more odd because some of those people who hold this bizarre view would not necessarily hold the same view about authors, poets, playwrights et al.

Very few authors, poets, playwrights at al whatever et al is make a living from writing. You do have some peculiar ideas.

[aeolium]

Multitudes on this planet barely subsist. Millions in this country barely scrape a living http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/key%20facts.shtml. Almost all of them aren't composers.

But that could be said about plenty of other professions or skilled types of work, not just composers. And it could have been said equally well of C18 composers. What are today's composers, or indeed the soloists/conductors supposed to do about it? They are working within a system which disproportionately rewards the (successful) single performer compared with orchestral musicians. Even ostensibly radical performers like Pollini, who has long been a supporter of the left in Italian politics and has worked (with Abbado and Nono inter al) to bring music to workplaces as well as the big concert halls, have not AFAIK publicly attacked the fee system for concert performance or its disproportionality.

It is hard to see how the system could easily be reformed given that soloists and conductors are presumably freelance/self-employed musicians. It is not like a company where a general rule that no-one should earn more than 10 or 20 times the income of the lowest-paid worker could be enacted.