Income in Classical Music and Jazz (Britain)

[Anna]

Yes, Anna - and Barlow. At nearly 50 one is entitled to separate out the sustaining from the swill.

Dunno about Barlow, but I've always been a Robbie Williams fan! <sshhh> don't tell anyone!! <ducks behind sofa and all that> No, he's really good!! Love his Rat Pack cd .... <I am not a sad person>

But I agree with you, earned sums are ridiculous, but we cannot project our own insecuities on them, can we? We cannot project, and compare, the bog standard earnings to others and ourselves? They get paid what the public want to pay them and us, well we just look on knowing we'll never achieve that, but do we want to? Edit: If Robbie Williams earns megabuck, I'll still listen to him. I won't listen to a pseudo-socialist like Jimmy Carr who is a weasle of the worst order, milking the system. Like Tony Blair, supposedly Socialist, did with his property portfolio and wealth.

[Lateralthinking1]

Dunno about Barlow, but I've always been a Robbie Williams fan! <sshhh> don't tell anyone!! <ducks behind sofa and all that> No, he's really good!! Love his Rat Pack cd .... <I am not a sad person>

But I agree with you, earned sums are ridiculous, but we cannot project our own insecuities on them, can we? We cannot project, and compare, the bog standard earnings to others and ourselves? They get paid what the public want to pay them and us, well we just look on knowing we'll never achieve that, but do we want to?

No, Anna, I would genuinely not want to be rich, I find the wealth differentials immoral and I know that they will continue whatever I think, but I also know that I should be able to decide what I buy, and even have on the radio in my home, knowing what it is that I am engaging with. We have had 17 posts and so far only the orchestra people are transparent.

[Anna]

No, Anna, I would genuinely not want to be rich, I find the wealth differentials immoral

And Lat, you didn't see the rest of my post. Would you ever vote Labour again after seeing what the so-called Socialist Tony Blair amassed in his property portfolio? In reality, he's just another George or Dave isn't he? As for Mandelson, and his 'being terribly relaxed about people being terrilby rich' where are the poor, working class, expected to go?

[Serial_Apologist]

How about a lapsed Catholic?

That and the BNP ref counts Elgar out then, apart from anything else I've missed...

(Only joking)

I know a good many jazz musicians - some of them as friends - but this is the kind of question I'd never even consider asking them. I am only acquainted with one composer in broadly the contemporary classical field, and he is of similar mind. One of the reasons I like 'em as individuals mostly is that if they didn'r realise there wasn't any money in it in the first place unless you happen to be Nigel Kennedy or were once Miles Davis, either their values aren't in having or seeking material riches beyond those needed for their craft and maintaining what I with my leftist views consider a decent standard and quality of living, or they soon find out. Nigel Kennedy isn't among them, btw.

[Lateralthinking1]

And Lat, you didn't see the rest of my post. Would you ever vote Labour again after seeing what the so-called Socialist Tony Blair amassed in his property portfolio? In reality, he's just another George or Dave isn't he? As for Mandelson, and his 'being terribly relaxed about people being terrilby rich' where are the poor, working class, expected to go?

That in a nutshell has been my problem with Labour since the 1970s and especially since 1997. Politicians, even radio executives, have a lacuna in respect of income. They believe that their credibility can be assessed irrespective of earnings but none of their decisions can ever be in separate compartments. Some of us can see through them.

Art and culture go further. We are told that the music of everyone from Mozart to Billie Holiday can only be fully appreciated when knowing their personalities and life stories. Each is in their music and from all that I have heard that is true.

Modern performers and composers, even presenters, fool themselves if they think they are giving to us wholeheartedly while drawing a veil over their wealth. Like it or not, the ability to charter a private jet etc is a fundamental manifestation of personality. Pretending otherwise compromises their art to such an extent that they might as well not communicate at all.

[LHC]

I won't listen to a pseudo-socialist like Jimmy Carr who is a weasle of the worst order, milking the system.

Do we know that Jimmy Carr is a pseudo-socialist? I can't recall him ever expressing any specific political views and I think it would be difficult to draw any conclusions from the targets of his jokes (unlike, say Ben Elton who started off taking a very clear left-wing stance and ended up writing the words for musicals by Queen and Andrew Lloyd Webber). Yes, he poked fun at bankers and their bonuses, but that was just an easy target at the time. I don't think he ever called for tax-dodgers to be villified or denied the vote, unlike that other well-known tax-dodger, Ken Livingstone.

To be honest, I think he has been rather hard done by in all this. I suspect he was largely unaware of the specifics of the scheme he was involved in and didn't know how aggressive it was. His accountant said to him "do you want to pay less tax?" and he said yes. As far as he was aware, this was just as legal as putting savings in an ISA (which avoids tax) or buying duty free scotch (which avoids tax). In that, he is not much different to the rest of us; his accountant just did it on a much larger scale.

Anyway, he has now apologised and withdrawn from the scheme and has promised not to minimise his taxes in the future.

[Anna]

Anyway, he has now apologised and withdrawn from the scheme and has promised not to minimise his taxes in the future.

Oh, slapped wrists for him. If I had found I could suddenly pay £8.5 cash for a mansion, hidden under the bed in some shoe boxes by some fairies living at the bottom of the garden, I too would apolgise for their tardiness in niot informing The Revenue. Edit: I mean, come on, I may have £300 hidden under the floorboards of the airing cupboard .............

[salymap]

I don't know about today but i know that conductors in the front rank sometimes accepted very small sums for concerts in this country years ago, relying on foreign tours for a good fee. I expect it's the same for musicians who do deputy work, their salaries can vary enormously. It's still an insecure way of making a living in my opinion.

[JohnSkelton]

Who are you referring to here, Lat, as I've lost the thread a bit? Footballers or musicians. conductors etc ? Isn't it a value judgement at the end of the day? I have more of a problem with the vast inflated salaries that many professional footballers and TV presenters get than what figure a musician/conductor etc gets.

There was an internet discussion of 'top' musicians' fees a few years ago, but I can't trace it beyond this http://www.overgrownpath.com/2009/10...disclosed.html

Public subsidies for classical music can exceed £75,000 per concert. So why aren't the fees paid to the performers and their agents from these subsidies disclosed? perhaps suggests a specific reason for getting exercised by the question in this context.

And these http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/08...0-concert.html

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/08/are-top-musicians-sharing-financial.html

It's certainly true that footballers' remunerations have played a significant part in financially wrecking some football clubs who gambled on a trade off debt / success / TV rights etc. Given that cuts to the budgets of classical orchestras / ensembles are a very present issue ... I wonder if soloist / conductor fees ae beginning to reflect this? (Given the vast differential between the remuneration / security of orchestral musicians and that of the soloists / conductors it's not surprising there's rancour).

[ahinton]

I agree with Anna in her view about envy of other people's wealth, be it in the form of assets, income or both. Frankly, I don't give a damn, as the old cliché goes. That fact, however, does nothing to make deriving a living from composition any easier and, not so long ago, Elliott Carter, in interview, remarked that" you don't make any money at this game" (and he's hardly a second division composer)...

[ahinton]

Public subsidies for classical music can exceed £75,000 per concert. So why aren't the fees paid to the performers and their agents from these subsidies disclosed?

That's never happened at any concert with a piece of mine in it...

[MrGongGong]

That's never happened at any concert with a piece of mine in it...

Snap

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i do not want to be glib because there are issues here but mostly if i am listening to music i enjoy/find interesting etc i do not think of the artist's income ... but if i am thinking or reading about music and artists i do care about their income ... but now i think i judge them as moral agents deserving of respect or shame as well as their artistic contribution ... i do feel this issue is about the audience and not about the artist her creativity and performance ...

[JohnSkelton]

That fact, however, does nothing to make deriving a living from composition any easier and, not so long ago, Elliott Carter, in interview, remarked that" you don't make any money at this game" (and he's hardly a second division composer)...

He has never needed to make any money from any game - he comes from a wealthy family.

[Hornspieler]

Originally Posted by Lateralthinking1
Does anyone know what a typical annual income is for the following:

(a) Radio 3 Presenter
(b) Member of an Orchestra
(c) Low Profile Conductor
(d) Low Profile Composer
(e) Low Profile Opera Singer
(f) Prominent Jazz Artist
(g) Low Profile Jazz Musician

less than a doctor

In 1991 at the age of sixteen, my daughter, who studied hard at school, gained straight As in 10 subjects for her GCSE. Biology, Chemistry, English Literature, English Language and Oral Communication, French, Geography, History, Latin, Mathematics and Physics. Two years later, she was awarded Grade A+ for Higher School Certificate in 4 subjects and gained entrance to Cambridge University, where she studied Medicine for three years, leaving with a 1st Class Degree.

By now aged 21, she enrolled as a Medical Student at Queen Mary’s Hospital for a further four years and then started to work as a junior doctor. During those years, she worked more than 50 hours a week, including 12-hour night shifts and was paid less than a hospital porter in the same hospital. So she was 28 years old before she began to earn proper money as a fully qualified doctor. Now at the age of 38, she is a Consultant in Radiology for two London Hospitals (Barts and New London) and Director of Breast Screening for all of Central and East London NHS hospitals. She now earns good money, but considerably less than her MP and has to pay a massive amount in medical liability insurance and a large percentage in pension contributions.

So why I am I telling you this?

Because if a conductor, player or composer makes a mistake, it is not likely to result in the permanent injury or death of a patient. Their errors are soon forgotten (oh, he was just having a bad night) and the offender moves on to conduct elsewhere or play in another orchestra – even in a different country. The composer who fails can try again, or pedal his writings elsewhere (or get a BBC Commission!)

The responsibility which a doctor shoulders every time he/she makes a diagnosis or starts a course of treatment is always present in their minds, and the possible consequences of being struck off the register and having to live with the knowledge of the heartbreak and loss caused by their actions, are far more devastating than having to read a poor review in the newspaper, or being told to improve or face dismissal, or having weeks of hard worked score writing rejected by a publisher..

Doctors earn their pensions. My own GP, who retires this month after many years of dedicated service to the community, saved my life twice in the last two years, in cooperation with NHS Hospital Surgeons.

Perhaps our attention would be better directed towards Premier League Footballers or so-called TV celebrities than towards people who serve the community with knowledge and understanding gained as a result of much earlier personal sacrifices.

Hornspieler