Church administration

[Guest]

Is this the place for a thread on the administration of churches great and small, or should i try The Choir? Its not realy R3-specific.

[french frank]

Is this the place for a thread on the administration of churches great and small, or should i try The Choir? Its not realy R3-specific.

I dunno. Try it here. If they can batter the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg here, why not the church?

[I realise I shouldn't have said that as it will result in a deviation from the topic of the OP - which is about church administration.

Could you be more specific, OK, in order to focus the discussion?]

[James Wonnacott]

Is this the place for a thread on the administration of churches great and small, or should i try The Choir? Its not realy R3-specific.

Go on, lets have it.

[Frances_iom]

I dunno. Try it here. If they can batter the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg here, why not the church?

surely related - both involve a belief in a messiah who will rise from the dead

[MrGongGong]

I dunno. Try it here. If they can batter the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg here, why not the church?

Trust you to instantly lower the tone of the conversation

[old khayyam]

Ok then: I mostly operate around the London area (which may have a bearing on this), and visit, or have dealings with, quite a few churches. I've noticed that more and more churches have attached some kind of Entertainments Manager to their employ whose remit seems to be to transform the church in question into a venue, rather than a house of God.

Rather than just a fete in the summer and maybe a 'Messiah' at christmas, the whole sacred space goes up for hire for any secular activity that knocks on the door.

This irks me somewhat, though my feelings are not yet fully formed on the matter.

[MrGongGong]

Rather than just a fete in the summer and maybe a 'Messiah' at christmas, the whole sacred space goes up for hire for any secular activity that knocks on the door.

This irks me somewhat, though my feelings are not yet fully formed on the matter.

But isn't that what churches WERE built for in the first place (in addition to the rest of the stuff with the space fairy etc ) ?

[french frank]

Ok then: I mostly operate around the London area (which may have a bearing on this), and visit, or have dealings with, quite a few churches. I've noticed that more and more churches have attached some kind of Entertainments Manager to their employ whose remit seems to be to transform the church in question into a venue, rather than a house of God.

Rather than just a fete in the summer and maybe a 'Messiah' at christmas, the whole sacred space goes up for hire for any secular activity that knocks on the door.

This irks me somewhat, though my feelings are not yet fully formed on the matter.

I'm not sure how far this goes. When I stay in London, I often walk past St Pancras parish church and look avidly at the notices in the hope that there will be an interesting lunchtime concert. But for me a recital of Schubert is a very reflective experience which is completely in keeping with the building. Three funerals I've been to have had jazz, live or recorded, and I respect the wish of the family to reflect the personality and love of the departed.

But a musical fundraising event I attended recently (fundraising for some aspect of the church's activities, I assume) had large adverts in front of the altar for the business of the firm sponsoring the event. It made me think of: "Get these out of here! Do not make My Father’s house a house of trade!" But the sponsor was a devout church-goer and I'm not so I have no right to an opinion.

[old khayyam]

for me a recital [...] is a very reflective experience which is completely in keeping with the building

Indeed, whether sacred or profane. Though I wouldnt accept jazz (unless there were such a thing a sacred jazz (What a great idea!) But anyway..)

"Get these out of here! Do not make My Father’s house a house of trade!"

Is exactly what i was thinking. In your case, i would challenge the sponsor's devotion.



I think what is really irking me is what seems to be an increasing number of churches with a trendy-looking youngster (30s) attached who is working wonders in marketing the church as an arts venue for gigs/exhibitions, in some cases even persuading them to pile money into modernising the interior, or building an annexe (which they will ultimately have sole control over).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Indeed, whether sacred or profane. Though I wouldnt accept jazz (unless there were such a thing a sacred jazz (What a great idea!) But anyway..

It is good, isn't it? Just as it was when Duke Ellington created his Sacred Concerts (in Westminster Abbey, I seem to remember), Coltrane's A Love Supreme (like Bruckner's Ninth, "dedicated" to God) or Louis Armstong's adaption of Spirituals, exorting his listeners to "get with the Big Boss".

In fact, why exclude "secular" Jazz if you allow non-sacred "classical" Musics?

[scottycelt]

Ok then: I mostly operate around the London area (which may have a bearing on this), and visit, or have dealings with, quite a few churches. I've noticed that more and more churches have attached some kind of Entertainments Manager to their employ whose remit seems to be to transform the church in question into a venue, rather than a house of God.

Rather than just a fete in the summer and maybe a 'Messiah' at christmas, the whole sacred space goes up for hire for any secular activity that knocks on the door.

This irks me somewhat, though my feelings are not yet fully formed on the matter.

Yes, it's sad, that's for sure, but probably inevitable in today's very secular age. If the churches are going to stay open the administrators have to consider fresh ways of raising money.

I do share your doubts and the suitability of some music for such events, though ...

I once attended a performance of Bruckner 9 in Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral (the venue presumably selected due to the composer's dedication and his so-called 'cathedrals of sound') and I vowed never, ever again. The sound reverberations made a total nonsense of the mighty work and the composer certainly knew what he was doing when he meant it for the secular concert hall.

Mind you, it could have been far worse ... for similar 'faith' reasons it might well have been Messiaen s Turangalila ...

[MrGongGong]

Tangerine Dream and Stimmung were both wonderful in Liverpool Cathedral in the 1970's
there's a great youtube film of TD in Coventry as well

I've done Gamelan with Butoh dancers in a fair few churches and cathedrals as well

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed, whether sacred or profane. Though I wouldnt accept jazz (unless there were such a thing a sacred jazz (What a great idea!) But anyway..)



Is exactly what i was thinking. In your case, i would challenge the sponsor's devotion.



I think what is really irking me is what seems to be an increasing number of churches with a trendy-looking youngster (30s) attached who is working wonders in marketing the church as an arts venue for gigs/exhibitions, in some cases even persuading them to pile money into modernising the interior, or building an annexe (which they will ultimately have sole control over).

Haven't you watched the TV series "Rev"?

[Flosshilde]

I'm not sure how far this goes. When I stay in London, I often walk past St Pancras parish church and look avidly at the notices in the hope that there will be an interesting lunchtime concert.

It has some very interesting exhibitions in the crypt as well.

[french frank]

It has some very interesting exhibitions in the crypt as well.

And overnight accommodation in the portico - free, I believe!