Simon Bolivar Orchestra live at Stirling - BBC4

[Nick Armstrong]

It may be. It's certainly a great disc-overy.

(It's ok. I've already got my coat. The weather's been so bad I've been wearing it for the last two weeks.)

[RobertLeDiable]

Welcome to the forum, Northender.

I think it should be emphasised that this programme was a documentary - not an orchestral concert, which may have been the impression given by some of the advance publicity.

So, like the disgruntled Ariosto, I too switched off shortly after the Egmont overture because I would never consider listening to the Eroica played by a hundred musicians even if it was the combined Vienna Philharmonic and Vienna Symphony orchestras.

But the programme is interesting in its content and perhaps the emphasis on Dudamel and his South American orchestra diminished the importance of what we were being told. In my opinion we could quite well have got the message without them, in a programme lasting less than 90 minutes. At that time of night, one's attention span diminishes very rapidly.

HS

It included a complete performance of the Eroica, so it was much more of a concert than a documentary. Pretty impressive to see an open air audience on a council estate enduring the cold and rain to watch and listen to a 45 minute symphony, I should have thought. Try that at Henley or Hyde Park and you'll clear the ground in no time. And actually, though I'm not a Dudamel fan particularly, there was a lot to enjoy in the Eroica performance, even if the playing conditions were very far from ideal.

[amateur51]

But Mr Gong Gong - that's all very interesting but all this stuff about a 'NPME' has no relevance in Scotland, nor (thank god) does Mr Gove in spite of his Aberdonian origins. Our music education system certainly has its faults but it hasn't been torn apart in the way the English one seems to have been.



I don't know whether any of the projects in England that claim to have been inspired by El Sistema are run on the same lines as the Stirling one but as I understand what happens in Sistema Scotland the intensity of the Raploch experience is far greater than you'd find even in a posh public school. You're talking about a primary school where something approaching (I think) about 90% of the kids are learning an instrument and where they rehearse or have lessons more or less every day. And they rehearse for a couple of hours after school on at least three or four days. I think they also also have regular music sessions at weekends and (crucially) during the school holidays. It starts with 5 and 6 year olds. The orchestral model was chosen in Venezuala, apparently, because it's the only musical genre where large numbers of kids have to perform as a group - and group discipline along with the shared experience it offers is key. It's not about whether classical music has greater artistic validity than other genres, it's about the fact that it requires teamwork on a larger scale. And I can assure you that when it was first mooted there were plenty of cynics working in music education who sneered at the very idea that deprived working class Scottish kids could ever be persuaded to take any interest whatever in classical music. They were proved absolutely wrong.

In Raploch, I'm told by people who have visited and studied the project, the transformation in kids lives is extraordinary. You're talking about kids, many of whom come from single parent families, some of whose parents are heroin or alcohol addicts, whose self esteem was rock bottom, and who now are confident and thriving at school. The type of music that has done this for them is irrelevant. It's wrong to make assumptions based on other schemes that are nowhere near as ambitious.

When I attended the El Sistema conference on London's South Bank a couple of years back it became clear pretty quickly that the Scottish experiment was more in tune with the Venezuelan original than the English version was. Richard Holloway as Chair of the Raploch project seemed to have grasped the essence of the socially transformative elements in a way that had yet (ever?) to impinge on the English Chair, Julian Lloyd Webber.

Both projects can, I'm sure, point to various types of change and success, both social and musical, individual and community. Any government would be mad not to embrace such an eminently demonstrable process but the big question is will they sustain their interest and let the musical and youth work experts have their head instead of interfering unhelpfully with short-term budget cuts, etc.

[aeolium]

It included a complete performance of the Eroica, so it was much more of a concert than a documentary. Pretty impressive to see an open air audience on a council estate enduring the cold and rain to watch and listen to a 45 minute symphony, I should have thought. Try that at Henley or Hyde Park and you'll clear the ground in no time. And actually, though I'm not a Dudamel fan particularly, there was a lot to enjoy in the Eroica performance, even if the playing conditions were very far from ideal.

I agree - I thought it was very impressive given the difficult circumstances.

And I completely agree with your msg 45 above

[RobertLeDiable]

Don't want to be too uncharitable to Mr Lloyd Webber, but he sometimes comes across as a bit of a bandwagon jumper. From what I've heard of that project it's not as close to the Venezuelan principles as the Scottish one. I'm sure it does some good work but I doubt if Lloyd Webber is much more than a figurehead. Holloway, on the other hand, is a real visionary who has spent his life working in socially deprived communities. When he first heard about El Sistema he happened to be chairman of the Scottish Arts Council and visited Venezuela to see whether there might be a way that the arts in Scotland could help with some of the intractable social problems he'd had to deal with.

As far as I understand it, the Scottish government is very supportive of Sistema's work, though in financial terms its contribution is still a fairly small proportion of the whole.

[ardcarp]

though I'm not a Dudamel fan particularly

I am. Pretty bloody good, IMO.

Anyone else pick up on the male dominance of SBO ? I wonder why it is...born of a macho culture perhaps?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Anyone else pick up on the male dominance of SBO ? I wonder why it is...born of a macho culture perhaps?

Strange, though: there were plenty of girls in the SBYouth Orchestra five years or so ago ...

[RobertLeDiable]

born of a macho culture perhaps?

Hmmmm....in this country, boys don't learn musical instruments at school so much partly because it's not considered macho (or cool) enough. But since when was playing the violin considered macho anywhere?! Actually I thought I did see quite a few ladies.

[Nick Armstrong]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2012/jun/22/dudamel-simon-bolivar-symphony-orchestra

[MrGongGong]

In Raploch, I'm told by people who have visited and studied the project, the transformation in kids lives is extraordinary. You're talking about kids, many of whom come from single parent families, some of whose parents are heroin or alcohol addicts, whose self esteem was rock bottom, and who now are confident and thriving at school. The type of music that has done this for them is irrelevant. It's wrong to make assumptions based on other schemes that are nowhere near as ambitious.

I know
these thing have been going on for many years in many places
but community Arts and Community Music aren't as sexy as the Bolivar kids ..........

- the English government might have a different view (as would be the case for any plans for music education - which is a seperate issue).

They do
and it's not really a separate issue as you will know if you read what they are doing ..............

[Flosshilde]

I know
these thing have been going on for many years in many places
but community Arts and Community Music aren't as sexy as the Bolivar kids ..........

They do
and it's not really a separate issue as you will know if you read what they are doing ..............

Why do you not get the point, MrGG? It's been explained often enough

Any 'community music' projects that have been going on have not been on the scale, or with the purpose, of el sistema & the Big Noise.

They are not designed as 'music education', but to use music, both learning & playing, as a transformative experience for people who have very poor chances of success.

The Big Noise is not the responsibility of the Scottish education department.

Scotland & England have seperate education systems, run by their own education departments & ministers

What the Westminster government propose for music education in England has nothing to do with the Big Noise in Scotland

Michael Gove is a complete numpty as far as education policies are concerned.

English education policies are mince


Sometimes you need to take your blinkers off & get a wider view.

[MrGongGong]

Why do you not get the point, MrGG? It's been explained often enough

Any 'community music' projects that have been going on have not been on the scale, or with the purpose, of el sistema & the Big Noise.

They are not designed as 'music education', but to use music, both learning & playing, as a transformative experience for people who have very poor chances of success.

The Big Noise is not the responsibility of the Scottish education department.

Scotland & England have seperate education systems, run by their own education departments & ministers

What the Westminster government propose for music education in England has nothing to do with the Big Noise in Scotland

Michael Gove is a complete numpty as far as education policies are concerned.

English education policies are mince


Sometimes you need to take your blinkers off & get a wider view.

I really suggest you learn a few more things before making big statements like these

1: There have been many large scale community arts and music projects in the past ....... this is NOT a new idea for the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ornament-Soc.../dp/1873667574 is one of the key texts , this is also worth reading http://salford.academia.edu/georgemc...ture_Soundings)
2: It is been touted as a model of musicking as part of Music Education (both in England and Scotland) even though the Raploch project states that it's not "music education"
3: It has everything to do with government policy in the UK as a whole
4: having worked in both England and Scotland on music projects with young people i'm perfectly aware of the differences between the two , though to assume that somehow music with young people is superior EVERYWHERE in Scotland would be a big mistake........

It would be useful if people took of their blinkers and looked at these things in a wider context, as I said , there's a lot good in young people playing music BUT to pretend that one has invented something new is ignorant......... and whether you like it or not these projects are not universally brilliant ...........

[scottycelt]

What the Westminster government propose for music education in England has nothing to do with the Big Noise in Scotland.

Hey ... please leave poor Alex Salmond out of this ...

[french frank]

What comes over, MrGG (and if I'm wrong, please say so ), is that you quite resent the emphasis being put on so-called 'classical music' as if someone has pulled a fast one and really young people of today should be Banging On A Can (metaphorically speaking) and being immersed in the music of Now.

All the signs are that Raploch, at least, is - in what it's trying to achieve - superb. And it's a charity, not taking limited funds from state provision for music education.

[amateur51]

I really suggest you learn a few more things before making big statements like these

1: There have been many large scale community arts and music projects in the past ....... this is NOT a new idea for the UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ornament-Soc.../dp/1873667574 is one of the key texts

Cheers for the reference MrGG but this book is 15 years old (which might/not mean it's out of date), comprises 105 pages and appears to cost £47.99

Not exactly priced for dissemination, is it