Simon Bolivar Orchestra live at Stirling - BBC4

[aeolium]

Just a heads up for the programme on BBC4 tonight 9 pm showing a concert by this orchestra as well as covering their work with Big Noise, the Scottish project based on El Sistema. There are articles on El Sistema and the Simon Bolivar orchestra in various online papers today as well.

[french frank]

I was just about to mention this article about it.

I know Mr GongGong is a non-fan . I'm not at all sure that it's possible to achieve the musical standards that Venezuela has done.

But the mere harnessing of music, like yer violins, and music-making, to a social and cultural community which would otherwise be totally deprived, and unaware of a different musical world, is something that I will applaud and hope that it helps the children to find rewards and benefits that their parents would never have thought possible.

I'm not sure why I think that here in the UK the task is more difficult.

[aeolium]

I'm not at all sure that it's possible to achieve the musical standards that Venezuela has done.

I don't think that's important - it's more about enjoyment and fulfilment for the children and community involvement. That seems to have been achieved to quite an extent in the project so far.

I'm not sure why I think that here in the UK the task is more difficult.

Money and government support perhaps? Funding problems are mentioned in the article you linked to, whereas El Sistema has Chavez supporting it (requiring regular reports on its progress!) and has long had government support. More nebulously, the Catholic (and more recently socialist) traditions in Venezuela may be more communitarian than Protestant individualism and might be more conducive to community involvement, but I don't really know enough about the social backgrounds to either project to be confident about this.

[french frank]

I'm not at all sure that it's possible to achieve the musical standards that Venezuela has done.

I don't think that's important - it's more about enjoyment and fulfilment for the children and community involvement. That seems to have been achieved to quite an extent in the project so far.

I totally agree. The rewards and benefits, of whatever kind, coming from music will have their own impact.

[MrGongGong]

I'm sure it will be a great event and I am the last person to try and dissuade ANYONE from doing ANY kind of music whatsoever (I even like to hear Girls in Cathedral Choirs .......)
But I would be very careful about believing everything that is written about the whole "In Harmony" thing .......... theres a lot of "puff" about

At a time where music education is facing a 40% cut etc etc etc ..............................

and of course until this came along none of us had any idea that we could do music with children who didn't have grade 5 ..............

hang on a minute
I've just had this great idea for a new invention
its a kind of disc that you pierce with a stick ...................

[salymap]

There was quite a bit about it on Today on R4 today, fairly early but,sorry, didn't note actual time.

[french frank]

It's the future in terms of music education, MrGG - you mustn't stay rooted in the past

I'm sure it will be a great event and I am the last person to try and dissuade ANYONE from doing ANY kind of music whatsoever (I even like to hear Girls in Cathedral Choirs .......)
But I would be very careful about believing everything that is written about the whole "In Harmony" thing .......... theres a lot of "puff" about

At a time where music education is facing a 40% cut etc etc etc ..............................

and of course until this came along none of us had any idea that we could do music with children who didn't have grade 5 ..............

hang on a minute
I've just had this great idea for a new invention
its a kind of disc that you pierce with a stick ...................

[MrGongGong]

It's the future in terms of music education, MrGG - you mustn't stay rooted in the past

now that's something i've never been accused of before ........

and without wanting to start the whole thing of again but it's a shame that a certain "comedy cellist" doesn't educated himself a bit more !

but as you suggest, if we are having a wholesale return to the 1950's with "O" levels then maybe the idea that the only way to participate in a musically valid activity is to play an orchestral instrument from the 19th Century ........

[Flosshilde]

MrGG (&ff), as this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012...ploch-bignoise) points out, it isn't about learning music. The children in Raploch's Big Noise don't learn to play an instrument as individuals, but as part of an orchestra - that's what it's about - learning to work together, to do something as a community, having pride & belief iin being able to do something positive, & literally (& I mean literally) keeping them off the streets.

Taf Magoche, whose daughter Chantelle plays violin, says: "It's a thing that brings the community together, and in the long run it's sowing a lot more benefits because when the kids get older there will be more options.

"It's not the best community, but for the future it will be a lot better because of the project. When you look at the social unrest, people on benefits, drugs and all that … this programme has brought something new and different for the kids – something that's not running around the streets causing mayhem."

Elizabeth Martin has a grandson who plays the double bass – "bigger than he is". "The mothers are so proud of their kids," she said. "The wee tears will be in my eyes on Thursday night."

A report commissioned by the Scottish government found that all the parents of pupils in the Scottish Sistema felt their child's confidence had improved as a result of their involvement, and more than 90% felt that their child was happier.

So forget about it as a model - either good or bad - for music education in the UK. That's not whatit's meant to be.

[MrGongGong]

So forget about it as a model - either good or bad - for music education in the UK. That's not whatit's meant to be.

so why was there so much about it in the National Plan for Music Education then ?

I'm not for one minute denying the obvious social and other benefits of participating in music, given what I do for a living that would be completely daft !
but there are some deeply fundamental flaws in the "In Harmony Model" which IS being promoted as a model for music education
I'm struck by what Chris Small wrote in "Music, Society , Education" well worth a read IMV

[Nick Armstrong]

No one seemed very interested last week http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...-Thurs-21-6-12

[Northender]

My dear chap, I would certainly have evinced what I would like to consider an adequate degree of enthusiasm had I been 'well connected' at the time. I shall certainly be watching.

[Nick Armstrong]

My dear chap, I would certainly have evinced what I would like to consider an adequate degree of enthusiasm had I been 'well connected' at the time. I shall certainly be watching.

My 'Venezuela' jacket, caught when hurled from the stage at the end of one of their concerts we attended, is visible on the hall stand as I write!

[Osborn]

No one seemed very interested last week

I know. It often feels like R3 members are more interested in 50 year old CDs & long dead musicians than the many wonderful present day artists we can hear live on R3 & in the concert hall..

Anyway, just for you: the Festival Hall concerts on Sat 23 & Tues 26 June will be streamed live by The Guardian

[scottycelt]

I wasn't aware that council 'estates' even existed in Scotland but maybe I've been away too long!

Certainly I've never associated a place like Stirling with any major degree of deprivation, but I suppose everything is relative when considering such things.

Enough cynicism! Not for the first time I tend to disagree with Flossie .. .. there are surely plenty of other activities that have been tried to 'bond' young communities and the idea of an orchestra playing classical music has surely got to be the most welcome and surprising yet ... and it does 'educate' the participants (after all, we all had to learn!) about the existence of great music that they may well wish to explore further in later life. If the project has worked in other places abroad it's well worth a try here.

I'll be foregoing the boring footie tonight to watch the concert ... can't wait!