Simon Bolivar Orchestra live at Stirling - BBC4

[aeolium]

perhaps you think that the Big Noise project is in some way a sinister scheme of the 'effing tories and their handbag carriers,

where does mr gong gong actually say this though?

What I was suggesting, handsomefortune, was that the Community Music projects that MrGG referred to in his earlier links were all still funded and in the case of CME had recently received a grant of £180K from the Arts Council. They don't solely rely on government or local government funding but are charities with other sources of potential funding. It's true that Arts Council funding has been severely cut by this government and I don't know how much this may have affected Community Music, but to be honest I doubt whether a Labour or Lib/Lab government would be much more generous with its arts funding given the present environment.

I was trying to understand what was at the bottom of MrGG's apparent hostility to the Raploch scheme - whether it was because the latter is based around orchestral work and therefore perhaps a throwback to an outdated approach to music education. But my point (in msg 76) was that surely there is room for a plurality of community music schemes, not simply those based around a single philosophy. And I'd like to add that if you believe that all community music projects have to be mainly dependent on government support, then I think you'll die waiting for that - whatever the government. The Raploch scheme, as a charity, has quite a number of other non-governmental sources of funding as well as support from Stirling council.

[amateur51]

(Oh dear ... they're still at it ....)
(I enjoyed the fireworks, by the way - those at the end of the concert).

[MrGongGong]

I'm not going to say much more about this
because some people seem unable to actually read and understand what my point was
but some random thoughts ..........

1: I'm not "hostile" to the Sistema modelled project , I think that it has some interesting things BUT there are a lot of assumptions behind the philosophy
2: Sound Sense , the national association for community music in the UK lost 100% of its funding
3: People seem to think that it's not worth discussing the implications of something being adopted as a MODEL in wider contexts (that means the rest of the UK)
4: It is interesting that many of the champions of this work are largely ignorant of the history of participatory arts in the UK (there's a similar thing going on with the way in which the Reggio Emilia approach is being promoted....... they are not BAD things BUT not always applicable
5: Things that work in one context don't always work everywhere are we should be very wary of "universal models" whether they are about music education or vegetable growing
6: Teaching instrumental music in groups is precisely what many of those who would be ecstatic about the Sitema philosophy have been opposed to i.e the Wider Opportunities programmes
7: There is no "one size fits all " solution to these things BUT certain approaches seem to be being promoted as such
8: Improvisation is only ONE way of engaging with music , as is performing other peoples work BUT there is a need for more creative approaches
9: It is easy to understand the semiotics of an orchestral performance which is one reason why people like it , whereas other musical activity is less transparent
10: people seem to like heroes , Dudamel is brilliant so lets follow him ............? this isn't always the best way to be
11:The funding in the whole of the UK for the arts and participation in the arts is reducing ......... this is a problem for us all
12: If you read the history of participation in music you will realise that what is often seen as a new thing is actually a rather old wheel , some people (Apple with the ipod for example) are very good at making it look as if they have invented or discovered something when all they have done is to repackage someone else's work
13: The evangelical frenzy that seems to have been building for many years over this project has been rather alienating for those people (the NYO for example) who have been doing some of these things for many years and I think it's a bit insulting to some great musicians who have devoted much of their time to working with a wide variety of communities.


now back to the symphony

[doversoul1]

aeolium

I was trying to understand what was at the bottom of MrGG's apparent hostility to the Raploch scheme

It is the media treatment of the project and not the project itself that I find rather suspicious. By making it sound as if the effects of the project were new discoveries, the report effectively denies all the works that have been done by many groups and individuals for all these years with children who are not obviously deprived in communities that are not so desperately dysfunctional. It will be good if the report leads to wider recognition of the effects of music education but I doubt it. It seems to be the question of news values.

[french frank]

I'm not going to say much more about this
because some people seem unable to actually read and understand what my point was

1: I'm not "hostile" to the Sistema modelled project , I think that it has some interesting things BUT there are a lot of assumptions behind the philosophy

Okay, listening ...

3: People seem to think that it's not worth discussing the implications of something being adopted as a MODEL in wider contexts (that means the rest of the UK)

But the indefinite article is the key - there is A model - for doing what they're doing. That isn't the same as the model for everyone and everything, precluding all others.

5: Things that work in one context don't always work everywhere are we should be very wary of "universal models" whether they are about music education or vegetable growing

I'm not sure that anyone is talking about "universal models", as in a single one for all contexts.

7: There is no "one size fits all " solution to these things BUT certain approaches seem to be being promoted as such

Same point: I can understand that point of view but I don't think anyone (though the media might suggest that - cf doversoul's point) is saying, You've got to do it like this: it's just - look what we're doing.

8: Improvisation is only ONE way of engaging with music , as is performing other peoples work BUT there is a need for more creative approaches

Isn't that the field which you concentrate on? Does no one else do it?

10: people seem to like heroes , Dudamel is brilliant so lets follow him ............? this isn't always the best way to be

Back to the media again? I don't think Sistema Scotland was about Dudamel but about the initial vision, what it set out to achieve, what it is achieving. A model.

11:The funding in the whole of the UK for the arts and participation in the arts is reducing ......... this is a problem for us all

Though Sistema Scotland is a charity and the vast majority of its funding does not come from the public/taxpayer

12: If you read the history of participation in music you will realise that what is often seen as a new thing is actually a rather old wheel , some people (Apple with the ipod for example) are very good at making it look as if they have invented or discovered something when all they have done is to repackage someone else's work

Does it matter whether it's new of not? Surely, the concern is whether, within its own limited context, it is effective?

13: The evangelical frenzy that seems to have been building for many years over this project has been rather alienating for those people (the NYO for example) who have been doing some of these things for many years and I think it's a bit insulting to some great musicians who have devoted much of their time to working with a wide variety of communities.

I don't see it as insulting. Frustrating, possibly. But what are they bothered about? Not getting recognition for their work?

[aeolium]

aeolium


It is the media treatment of the project and not the project itself that I find rather suspicious. By making it sound as if the effects of the project were new discoveries, the report effectively denies all the works that have been done by many groups and individuals for all these years with children who are not obviously deprived in communities that are not so desperately dysfunctional. It will be good if the report leads to wider recognition of the effects of music education but I doubt it. It seems to be the question of news values.

doversoul, I agree with that and I wouldn't want at all to detract from the excellent work that has been done on other community projects, and is being done. There does seem to have been an excessive focus (perhaps currently linked to the 'cultural' Olympics) on Raploch and its El Sistema forerunner. But, that said, I would still applaud the significant achievements of both those projects even if I would agree that they should not be regarded as 'universal models' (should anything?). They have helped children whose lives would otherwise in all probability have been much worse and I still think it's right to regard both these projects as primarily social projects, not projects of musical education; as Abreu, the founder of El Sistema, stated, "Music has to be recognized as an agent of social development, in the highest sense because it transmits the highest values - solidarity, harmony, mutual compassion."

[Flosshilde]

There are an awful lot of apparent misunderstandings in your post, MrGG, but I'll take just this one -

13: The evangelical frenzy that seems to have been building for many years over this project has been rather alienating for those people (the NYO for example) who have been doing some of these things for many years and I think it's a bit insulting to some great musicians who have devoted much of their time to working with a wide variety of communities.

I don't know whether you have any direct evidence of alienation in the National Youth Orchestra of Scotland, either from players or managers. I will have to assume that you have. However, to compare the NYOS with the Big Noise is to compare two different things. Dudamel & the Simon Bolivar Orchestra are side-products of el sistema, not end products. If the Big Noise produces some musicians (playing in whatever musical form) then good, but that shouldn't be, & isn't intended to be, the measure of it's success.

I recognise that you have serious, and passionate, beliefs about music education & what is happening (primarily in England) - but you are wrong to use el sistema & the Big Noise as pegs to hang those concerns on.

[MrGongGong]

There are an awful lot of apparent misunderstandings in your post, MrGG, but I'll take just this one -



I don't know whether you have any direct evidence of alienation in the National Youth Orchestra of Scotland, either from players or managers. I will have to assume that you have. However, to compare the NYOS with the Big Noise is to compare two different things. Dudamel & the Simon Bolivar Orchestra are side-products of el sistema, not end products. If the Big Noise produces some musicians (playing in whatever musical form) then good, but that shouldn't be, & isn't intended to be, the measure of it's success.

I recognise that you have serious, and passionate, beliefs about music education & what is happening (primarily in England) - but you are wrong to use el sistema & the Big Noise as pegs to hang those concerns on.

I guess some people are simply unable to put the specific into a wider context
It's funny how some things seem to be beyond critical analysis
My criticisms of the pedagogy (for want of a better word) are not to do with "what is happening in England" but I guess most people aren't able to see things in a much wider context than the immediate ........
Do you actually READ what I wrote ? rather than assume that because I had dared to be critical (in a measured way if you bother to read what I wrote !) of this project that somehow I'm advocating that everyone does something else ........

I suggest (again) that people who want to understand the wider philosophical thinking in this area that Music, Society,Education is a good place to start.....

[Northender]

[QUOTE=MrGongGong;177021]I'm not going to say much more about this

[Flosshilde]

My criticisms of the pedagogy (for want of a better word) are not to do with "what is happening in England"

Well, as you refered to the proposals for music education in England it was a reasonable assumption

because I had dared to be critical

I think that your criticisms are based on a false premise. However, I've said all I can say, several times & in different ways, in an attempt to point out to you where you are wrong, with no success, so there's really not much point in pursuing it further. I prefer to base my views of what Sistema Scotland/the Raploch Big Noise is about on what the people involved say, rather than what you believe, or the English Education Department, or a few journalists.

[MrGongGong]

Well, as you refered to the proposals for music education in England it was a reasonable assumption



I think that your criticisms are based on a false premise. However, I've said all I can say, several times & in different ways, in an attempt to point out to you where you are wrong, with no success, so there's really not much point in pursuing it further. I prefer to base my views of what Sistema Scotland/the Raploch Big Noise is about on what the people involved say, rather than what you believe, or the English Education Department, or a few journalists.

and I also base my views on experience both mine and many others in England , SCOTLAND and musicians I know who have worked on the Venezuelan project....... so don't accuse me of not having opinions based on experience