Simon Bolivar Orchestra live at Stirling - BBC4

[aeolium]

Isn't there room for more than one type of approach to community music, though? If the El Sistema idea took over to the extent that it was elbowing out other types of community music-making, then I'd agree that it was right to be concerned. But is it - the links that MrGG provided of other forms of community music suggested that these were also still very much alive?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That aspect doesn't bother me at all. Think of drama: should there only be playwrights, and no actors? Should all actors be playwrights?

But every Drama class and college course involves an essential element of improvisation. It's taken for granted that actors need to be creative and co-operative simultaneously in ways that traditional "classical" music performance ensembles for young people (no matter how wonderful - and many of them are "wonderful" for all the right reasons) don't seem to be able to incorporate.

Every professional actor you see on the stage or telly (for those who possess such) today has had a thorough grounding in creative, co-operative "impro": it doesn't prevent them from performing Shakespeare or Strindberg or Bond (either!) well. That these sorts of activities are excluded from "classical" Musics performance should, I suggest, "bother" us all, because they are at least as "disciplined" and "teambuilding" as the traditional "playing from a part whilst following the leader", whilst adding the "specialized and valuable process" of "creativity" as well.

It never has been the case that creativity has been a mass participation occupation and in any case it doesn't seem to teach the same valuable lessons which performance does, as far as these particular children are concerned: namely, cooperative teamwork and the necessary sustained discipline.

If "it has never been the case", how can you begin to surmise that "it doesn't seem to teach the same valuable lessons"?
And isn't "never" too vast a word here: "mass participation occupations" in Music only begin to appear just over 200 years ago (at around the time of that other "mass participation occupation", the Industrial Revolution - unless we include Pyramid building). "Has never" belongs to the Past: for the future well-being of Society (and everyone in it) it occurs to me that new ideas are at least as important.

[Flosshilde]

The problem with the discussion here is that MrGG has hijacked it, in a sense, with his concerns about musical education in England. El sistema as it has been introduced in Scotland in Stirling &, apparently, shortly in Glasgow is not primarily about musical education. It's primary purpose is not to turn out wonderful musicians, or even competent ones, but to turn out competent human beings. If some turn out to be wonderful, or competent, musicians that is, almost, an added bonus.

[amateur51]

The problem with the discussion here is that MrGG has hijacked it, in a sense, with his concerns about musical education in England. El sistema as it has been introduced in Scotland in Stirling &, apparently, shortly in Glasgow is not primarily about musical education. It's primary purpose is not to turn out wonderful musicians, or even competent ones, but to turn out competent human beings. If some turn out to be wonderful, or competent, musicians that is, almost, an added bonus.

I must say that's how I've seen the Scottish project from the start Flossie and Richard Holloway has been clear and up-front about that.

[RobertLeDiable]

The problem with the discussion here is that MrGG has hijacked it, in a sense, with his concerns about musical education in England. El sistema as it has been introduced in Scotland in Stirling &, apparently, shortly in Glasgow is not primarily about musical education. It's primary purpose is not to turn out wonderful musicians, or even competent ones, but to turn out competent human beings. If some turn out to be wonderful, or competent, musicians that is, almost, an added bonus.

That seems to be the nub of it. And Mr GG seems to believe that 'community arts' projects (is that what Sistema Scotland is?) are best if they are 'creative', in musical terms based around improvisation, rather than merely performance centred. That's a point of view, but it does seem largely tangential to what I understand to be happening in Raploch, where music has been integrated into the curriculum of the community's primary school, not added on as an after-school activity. There is little or no individual instrumental teaching, it's all done in groups. And it starts in P1. I'd be amazed if all the many supposedly similar schemes he claims have been in operation in England for years are anything like what's happening there. And I don't think others, especially journalists, calling it a 'music education scheme' actually makes it one. Misunderstanding the project's aims and methods seems to be widespread among people who, like MR GG, haven't been to see it in action.

Like Flosshilde, I sympathise with the frustration of people working in the English education system, but it would be nice if they didn't try to project their cynicism onto something that appears to be doing great work in a different system with different priorities.

[french frank]

But every Drama class and college course involves an essential element of improvisation. It's taken for granted that actors need to be creative and co-operative simultaneously in ways that traditional "classical" music performance ensembles for young people (no matter how wonderful - and many of them are "wonderful" for all the right reasons) don't seem to be able to incorporate.

I refer you to aeolium's Msg #76. The point I was making is that the El Sistema (Scotland) people have decided on a particular approach and they're following it. That's what they want to do and I don't see that you can criticise it because it isn't (or doesn't incorporate) something else. I wasn't referring to 'music education' but to this specific example for these particular children.

Every professional actor you see on the stage or telly (for those who possess such) today has had a thorough grounding in creative, co-operative "impro": it doesn't prevent them from performing Shakespeare or Strindberg or Bond (either!) well. That these sorts of activities are excluded from "classical" Musics performance should, I suggest, "bother" us all, because they are at least as "disciplined" and "teambuilding" as the traditional "playing from a part whilst following the leader", whilst adding the "specialized and valuable process" of "creativity" as well.

I think I share the same view as Floss - that an entire primary school (plus parents, if they wish) might prove a bit problematic. Drama isn't the same in that you're unlikely to have more than half a dozen to any one performing 'team', so, no, I don't see that improvisation builds up teams of 50-60+ in the same way: playing in an orchestra is a single activity shared by many: dramatic performance allows for individuals to be individuals. And children are different from adults in needing to be taught the basic disciplines of sitting still, being quiet and concentrating when necessary - more difficult with a class of 30 than a group of six.

None of this is disputing what you say about the training of professional actors (my point wasn't about improvisation but about the creative act of writing vis-à-vis composing, which I thought MrGG was referring to when he spoke of reproducing v creating) - and what exercises does (say) a professional string quartet practise in rehearsal to build up the sort of group understanding that they need?

If "it has never been the case", how can you begin to surmise that "it doesn't seem to teach the same valuable lessons"?

I was 'surmising' that with an entire roomful of 5-11 year-olds it's difficult to keep each and every one - even the ones at the back - concentrating rather than having a few fooling about. That this approach succeeds is a telling point in its favour.

And isn't "never" too vast a word here: "mass participation occupations" in Music only begin to appear just over 200 years ago (at around the time of that other "mass participation occupation", the Industrial Revolution - unless we include Pyramid building). "Has never" belongs to the Past: for the future well-being of Society (and everyone in it) it occurs to me that new ideas are at least as important.

We come back to the same point: it may well be that this (classical music) is not the best way to encourage creativity, but that - again - isn't its primary purpose. The benefits have reportedly been in developing happy, focused, more confident children who are better equipped to make a success of their lives. If it suceeds in that, you would need to point to the downside of the approach in order to suggest it's somehow a wrong-headed, imperfect method.

[Flosshilde]

Is all artistic creation improvisation? The question is, how much of a performance of, say, Beethoven's 5th symphony is creation & how much is re-creation.

[MrGongGong]

Isn't there room for more than one type of approach to community music, though? If the El Sistema idea took over to the extent that it was elbowing out other types of community music-making, then I'd agree that it was right to be concerned. But is it - the links that MrGG provided of other forms of community music suggested that these were also still very much alive?

that would be nice if we hadn't ended up with the effing tories and their handbag carriers

The problem with the discussion here is that MrGG has hijacked it, in a sense, with his concerns about musical education in England. El sistema as it has been introduced in Scotland in Stirling &, apparently, shortly in Glasgow is not primarily about musical education. It's primary purpose is not to turn out wonderful musicians, or even competent ones, but to turn out competent human beings. If some turn out to be wonderful, or competent, musicians that is, almost, an added bonus.

My "concerns" as you put them are not about "England" but as you seem unable to see this in a wider context (which includes the social one) then there's no point really.

That seems to be the nub of it. And Mr GG seems to believe that 'community arts' projects (is that what Sistema Scotland is?) are best if they are 'creative', in musical terms based around improvisation, rather than merely performance centred. That's a point of view, but it does seem largely tangential to what I understand to be happening in Raploch, where music has been integrated into the curriculum of the community's primary school, not added on as an after-school activity. There is little or no individual instrumental teaching, it's all done in groups. And it starts in P1. I'd be amazed if all the many supposedly similar schemes he claims have been in operation in England for years are anything like what's happening there. And I don't think others, especially journalists, calling it a 'music education scheme' actually makes it one. Misunderstanding the project's aims and methods seems to be widespread among people who, like MR GG, haven't been to see it in action.

Like Flosshilde, I sympathise with the frustration of people working in the English education system, but it would be nice if they didn't try to project their cynicism onto something that appears to be doing great work in a different system with different priorities.

I have seen it
i have friends who work for it ............

You seem a little confused , as if it's "nothing to do with music education" what does this mean ?

"music has been integrated into the curriculum of the community's primary school, not added on as an after-school activity. "

so i've learnt that learning a musical instrument (IN GROUPS ......... er like the much derided Wider Opps ) is NOT music education because it's going to save me from being another teenager in the park with a bottle of Buckfast !

anyhow time to go
I've got a symphony to write (yes really )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is all artistic creation improvisation? The question is, how much of a performance of, say, Beethoven's 5th symphony is creation & how much is re-creation.

Oh crumbs!

Imagination and creativity are/should be involved in any performance of any text-based work: how fast is Allegro? How loud is p? Who's got the tune? Is this a countersubject or is it a new theme with which the theme heard earlier provides a counter-subject? Given the acoustic of this Hall, should we play louder than last night? Which edition should we use? What else shall we play in the concert? etc etc. But if the creativity extends to (for example) adding material from another work, then it's less of a performance of Beethoven's 5th and more the performers' "take" on "wider" cultural implications of "Beethoven's 5th".

There is/should be creativity and imagination involved in listening to a piece, too: What is happening? Why are the Horns in this performance louder than I've heard in other performances of the work? How has the composer got to E minor from the Ab major we started off with? Haven't I heard that chord progression earlier in the work? When are the 'celli going to do something more interesting? Why has the composer just done the same thing he did in the last seven pieces he wrote? etc etc.

Creativity is intelligence.

[amateur51]

Oh crumbs!

Imagination and creativity are/should be involved in any performance of any text-based work: how fast is Allegro? How loud is p? Who's got the tune? Is this a countersubject or is it a new theme with which the theme heard earlier provides a counter-subject? Given the acoustic of this Hall, should we play louder than last night? Which edition should we use? What else shall we play in the concert? etc etc. But if the creativity extends to (for example) adding material from another work, then it's less of a performance of Beethoven's 5th and more the performers' "take" on "wider" cultural implications of "Beethoven's 5th".

There is/should be creativity and imagination involved in listening to a piece, too: What is happening? Why are the Horns in this performance louder than I've heard in other performances of the work? How has the composer got to E minor from the Ab major we started off with? Haven't I heard that chord progression earlier in the work? When are the 'celli going to do something more interesting? Why has the composer just done the same thing he did in the last seven pieces he wrote? etc etc.

Creativity is intelligence.

Great stuff, fhg - and I understood it

[Flosshilde]

that would be nice if we hadn't ended up with the effing tories and their handbag carriers

Actually Scotland hasn't, as far as its social, education, legal etc policies are concerned.

My "concerns" as you put them are not about "England" but as you seem unable to see this in a wider context (which includes the social one) then there's no point really.

But you keep referring to references to el sistema in the proposals for music education in England.

You seem a little confused , as if it's "nothing to do with music education" what does this mean ?

CAn you give the quote from any posts of mine (or others) that use the words "nothing to do with music education"?

[aeolium]

that would be nice if we hadn't ended up with the effing tories and their handbag carriers

What exactly has that got to do with it? Of the community projects you referenced in your links, Community Music in England has a grant from ACE of £180,000, CM Wales has a variety of funding including ACW, the Welsh assembly, the European Social Fund etc. Or perhaps you think that the Big Noise project is in some way a sinister scheme of the 'effing tories and their handbag carriers', which would be rather strange as it is directly derived from a community project in an ostensibly 'socialist' country, Venezuela, and as a project in a Scottish district, does not come under the control of the Westminster government. Are you suggesting that no community music project that does not conform with your own ideas of community music-making should be supported, even though there seem to be pretty strong social and musical benefits in the Raploch scheme?

[scottycelt]

The problem with the discussion here is that MrGG has hijacked it, in a sense, with his concerns about musical education in England. El sistema as it has been introduced in Scotland in Stirling &, apparently, shortly in Glasgow is not primarily about musical education. It's primary purpose is not to turn out wonderful musicians, or even competent ones, but to turn out competent human beings. If some turn out to be wonderful, or competent, musicians that is, almost, an added bonus.

What on earth is a competent human being ... ? ...

[amateur51]

What on earth is a competent human being ... ? ...

What do you imagine a competent human being to be, scotty?

[scottycelt]

What do you imagine a competent human being to be, scotty?

Apart from your very goodself, there ain't any such thing, I'm afraid, amsey ...