Simon Bolivar Orchestra live at Stirling - BBC4

[Nick Armstrong]

Oh dear .... and I've only just joined Can I please stay if I don't feel disgusted?

Sure... pull up a chair, grab a cup of tea and a biscuit and settle down to enjoy the scrap

For some reason they put me in mind of Arthur Daley and D.S. Chisholm in 'Minder' - remember that? In fact....

... perhaps the guilty party/ies took their lead from 'Murder on the Orient Express'.

... I think I may be on to something

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minder_on_the_Orient_Express

Diabolical liberties have been taken with my trusting nature, Terrence....

[ardcarp]

In my opinion, Richard Holloway is one of the truly great Britons - a wonderful man of great courage, spirit and vision to bring such a project to Raploch.

Amen to that! The Simon Bolivar orchestra itself did very well, given the rain and having to play in a tent...and there was a good mixture of 'serious' (Eroica) and crowd-pleasing (Ginastera and Bernstein...with corybantics) stuff to entertain the soggy audience. It was great that a few of the better Raploch youngsters got to play with the SBO in Egmont.

It is difficult to know if the Raploch experiment with el sistema is going to work. One had to filter out Kirsty Wark's windswept exuberance from the reality; and the dynamic of a Scots council estate (if such it be) is totally different from downtown Caracas. But let's hope that with funding and the time given by big names such as Nicola Benedetti it will succeed and spread. South West of England next please!

Did anyone notice how predominantly MALE the SBO was?

[MrGongGong]

What did your own music education start with, MrGG?

A MIXTURE of learning an instrument, experimenting with ways of playing, singing in a choir , improvising, playing in a youth orchestra, playing in a band, being kicked out of the primary school recorder group for playing it with my nose, messing around with taking the piano apart and being banned from playing the grand piano at school for playing the blues !

I am concerned that we are in danger of making huge assumptions about WHAT music is and what participation in it means without really examining it in detail. It seems that decisions about the future , both musical and in other areas, of what opportunities are available to young people is being decided by people with little or no experience or understanding. To create a blueprint for the future of music education that seems to exclude improvised musics , composition and any real thinking about what music is about in favour of performance orientated talent quests is rather short sighted in my view. Music is wider than this .........

[RobertLeDiable]

I can assure Flosshilde that the Raploch estate featured in official statistics for decades as one of the most deprived in Europe. It may be part of Stirling which many may know as something of a tourist destination, though it's right on the edge of the town, but it has had serious long term problems of high unemployment, poor health and drug use.

I'm not sure why Mr Gong Gong keeps referring to a cellist - presumably Mr Lloyd Webber - and the idea that what is happening in Stirling has anything to do with establishing a model music education system. It doesn't, and the In Harmony project as far as I understand it is quite different. El Sistema as it's being developed in Scotland is about helping to address social deprivation with music as the vehicle. In the four years since it was established in Raploch, it seems to have made great strides. Teachers in the school there have reported on how much it has done for the children's self-esteem, concentration and discipline. Many of these children come from very difficult family backgrounds. But many of the parents have become involved too. I believe there's even a parents' orchestra now. It's remarkable.

What was also remarkable, and rather wonderful, was that the concert programme was not the usual summer 'classical pops' affair. To play the whole of the Eroica in those circumstances was a brave and idealistic thing to do and an indication of how serious that whole project is.

[RobertLeDiable]

It is difficult to know if the Raploch experiment with el sistema is going to work. One had to filter out Kirsty Wark's windswept exuberance from the reality; and the dynamic of a Scots council estate (if such it be) is totally different from downtown Caracas. But let's hope that with funding and the time given by big names such as Nicola Benedetti it will succeed and spread.

I think it's pretty well established by now that it is working very well. And it can do so without big names, though Nicola Benedetti has obviously done some good work there. I believe there are already plans to extend it to a deprived area of Glasgow, with others to follow. But it does need a lot of investment, and a local authority willing to tie it in with other social inclusion initiatives.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure why Mr Gong Gong keeps referring to a cellist - presumably Mr Lloyd Webber - and the idea that what is happening in Stirling has anything to do with establishing a model music education system. It doesn't, and the In Harmony project as far as I understand it is quite different. El Sistema as it's being developed in Scotland is about helping to address social deprivation with music as the vehicle. In the four years since it was established in Raploch, it seems to have made great strides. Teachers in the school there have reported on how much it has done for the children's self-esteem, concentration and discipline. Many of these children come from very difficult family backgrounds. But many of the parents have become involved too. I believe there's even a parents' orchestra now. It's remarkable..

Well I suggest you read this

http://www.musiceducationuk.com/read-the-plan/

(and don't give up on the maths !!!! but I don't expect anyone to bother really...........)

We all know that taking part in music has many benefits outside of the sonic activity........... tell me something NEW

What really puzzles me is that people have been for a considerable time marvelling about how brilliant the Sistema model is ,and there are many wonderful things about it for those who have participated in Venezuela and the UK.

BUT , and it's a rather big BUT

the project is based around giving young people and their families a very intensive (and therefore expensive, not a bad thing in itself !) experience , which is not unlike the kind of intensive music that wealthy parents pay for when they send their children to private schools.... in addition to this , the model of using the arts as tools for social change is precisely what the Labour government did with many of their programmes , precisely the ones which are now lambasted as a waste of money we couldn't afford to spend etc etc etc I remember taking part in a youth music project where in the evaluation we were asked to estimate it's effect on teenage pregnancy which almost suggests that taking part in music will improve your "moral compass" , something the orchestral players will obviously go along with as there's never any divorce, alcohol abuse, stress related illness or dubious sexual behaviour amongst the symphony orchestras of the UK

Aside from the rather IMV (and this http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780819572233) questionable idea of the orchestra as a suitable model for all participation in music (and I'm not saying anything AGAINST the orchestra , in fact i'm working for a rather famous London one today !) I wonder if there would be so much enthusiasm if the project focussed on Jazz ? or chess ? or growing asparagus ? there is something else going on here, and if you bother to read and understand the weightings in the NPME then the agenda becomes fairly clear. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy (in the Magyar sense) but there is an underlying ethos which seems to suggest that ONLY this form of music is valid.........

rant over , time to go to a group of thirty 10 year olds with 5 orchestral musicians and mess with their heads and make some strange music

[scottycelt]

I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with in the comments above. I didn't say that the Big Noise wouldn't educate the participants about great music - just that that's not its principal aim, which is to use the discipline of learning to play an instrument & play together in an orchestra to develop 'discipline' (in its more positive meaning), structure & community feeling in the lives of the children involved (about a sixth of the population of the estate or scheme). The evidence of how it has worked in Raploch won't be apparent for a good many years, but the evidence from Venezuela is that it does work.

Point taken, Floss ... a bit like finding discipline by joining an army and being handed an oboe instead of a gun?

Anyway, I'm sure that the audience in Stirling had a great time, despite the weather

I would rather say that the event was all the more impressive because of the weather. To see all those happy, smiling faces in plastic macs listening to classical music was a pure joy and delight to behold. I also thought Kirsty Wark's 'exuberance' was appropriate for the occasion as, after all, it was meant to be a "party-spirit" celebration. Presenters (especially female) often come in for harsh criticism here so congratulations and well done to Kirsty!

As a side issue, and I suspect not too far from Dudamel's mind, I do wish we could hear more South American pieces in UK concert halls.

[Northender]

Sure... pull up a chair, grab a cup of tea and a biscuit and settle down to enjoy the scrap

For some reason they put me in mind of Arthur Daley and D.S. Chisholm in 'Minder' - remember that? In fact....



... I think I may be on to something

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minder_on_the_Orient_Express

Diabolical liberties have been taken with my trusting nature, Terrence....

What ARE they like - stlll sniping away!
I'm not sure whether you've seen the BBC4 relay yet, but I agree wholeheartedly with ardcarp's comments. Oh yes, and there was a full-scale outbreak of jacket-hurling at the end. What a souvenir for those who managed to collar (oh dear....) one!

[Hornspieler]

I know. It often feels like R3 members are more interested in 50 year old CDs & long dead musicians than the many wonderful present day artists we can hear live on R3 & in the concert hall..

Anyway, just for you: the Festival Hall concerts on Sat 23 & Tues 26 June will be streamed live by The Guardian

I was turning out a cupboard the other day and I found a flat round object the size of a dinner plate, with spiralled scratchings on both sides and a little hole right in the middle.

Is this a record?

[Flosshilde]

I can assure Flosshilde that the Raploch estate featured in official statistics for decades as one of the most deprived in Europe. It may be part of Stirling which many may know as something of a tourist destination, though it's right on the edge of the town, but it has had serious long term problems of high unemployment, poor health and drug use.

I know - I lived near Stirling for a while & my partner was involved in a community development & employment project in Raploch for a while, & we are both involved in Govanhill, which has been mooted as the next location - it will be interesting to see how it works there, as the area is much more culturally diverse than Raploch, with a large Asian population, plus more recent Roma immigration, and quite a strong art community as well as the older Scottish community.

As for cost, I think the Guardian article I linked to said that 14% came from public funds - the rest presumably from private support. How that would work as the project spreads I'm not sure. It also has to be remembered that the funding comes from the Scottish government - the English government might have a different view (as would be the case for any plans for music education - which is a seperate issue).

[french frank]

I wonder if there would be so much enthusiasm if the project focussed on Jazz ? or chess ? or growing asparagus ? there is something else going on here, and if you bother to read and understand the weightings in the NPME then the agenda becomes fairly clear. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy (in the Magyar sense) but there is an underlying ethos which seems to suggest that ONLY this form of music is valid.........

Your alternative suggestions have partly answered your own question.

Is there a social engineering aspect? Classical music is regarded as the preserve of the middle classes and is probably considered more 'exclusive' than either jazz or folk. To engage children practically with orchestral music and take them to concerts breaks down musical as well as social barriers.

Why orchestral/classical? Perhaps because it has been people with that primary interest who have actually got up and done something.

It may not be the way you teach children, but you are equally hoping to be a formative influence.

[mangerton]

I was turning out a cupboard the other day and I found a flat round object the size of a dinner plate, with spiralled scratchings on both sides and a little hole right in the middle.

Is this a record?

It may be. It's certainly a great disc-overy.

(It's ok. I've already got my coat. The weather's been so bad I've been wearing it for the last two weeks.)

[Hornspieler]

My dear chap, I would certainly have evinced what I would like to consider an adequate degree of enthusiasm had I been 'well connected' at the time. I shall certainly be watching.

Welcome to the forum, Northender.

I think it should be emphasised that this programme was a documentary - not an orchestral concert, which may have been the impression given by some of the advance publicity.

So, like the disgruntled Ariosto, I too switched off shortly after the Egmont overture because I would never consider listening to the Eroica played by a hundred musicians even if it was the combined Vienna Philharmonic and Vienna Symphony orchestras.

But the programme is interesting in its content and perhaps the emphasis on Dudamel and his South American orchestra diminished the importance of what we were being told. In my opinion we could quite well have got the message without them, in a programme lasting less than 90 minutes. At that time of night, one's attention span diminishes very rapidly.

HS

[Northender]

I hadn't realized that it was going to be a documentary-cum-Cultural Olympiad launch, but still enjoyed it as a reasonably competent, partly live, relay of a musical occasion (a description which I would like to think sums it up pretty well). The 'Eroica' received a decent enough performance (mind you, I'm not a trained musician). Wark and Holloway were a bit too evangelical for my liking, but I guess they were there to remind us - were a reminder needed - of the BBC's commitment to the Olympics and its consequent need to justify the cost to licence-fee payers.

[RobertLeDiable]

But Mr Gong Gong - that's all very interesting but all this stuff about a 'NPME' has no relevance in Scotland, nor (thank god) does Mr Gove in spite of his Aberdonian origins. Our music education system certainly has its faults but it hasn't been torn apart in the way the English one seems to have been.

BUT , and it's a rather big BUT

the project is based around giving young people and their families a very intensive (and therefore expensive, not a bad thing in itself !) experience , which is not unlike the kind of intensive music that wealthy parents pay for when they send their children to private schools

I don't know whether any of the projects in England that claim to have been inspired by El Sistema are run on the same lines as the Stirling one but as I understand what happens in Sistema Scotland the intensity of the Raploch experience is far greater than you'd find even in a posh public school. You're talking about a primary school where something approaching (I think) about 90% of the kids are learning an instrument and where they rehearse or have lessons more or less every day. And they rehearse for a couple of hours after school on at least three or four days. I think they also also have regular music sessions at weekends and (crucially) during the school holidays. It starts with 5 and 6 year olds. The orchestral model was chosen in Venezuala, apparently, because it's the only musical genre where large numbers of kids have to perform as a group - and group discipline along with the shared experience it offers is key. It's not about whether classical music has greater artistic validity than other genres, it's about the fact that it requires teamwork on a larger scale. And I can assure you that when it was first mooted there were plenty of cynics working in music education who sneered at the very idea that deprived working class Scottish kids could ever be persuaded to take any interest whatever in classical music. They were proved absolutely wrong.

In Raploch, I'm told by people who have visited and studied the project, the transformation in kids lives is extraordinary. You're talking about kids, many of whom come from single parent families, some of whose parents are heroin or alcohol addicts, whose self esteem was rock bottom, and who now are confident and thriving at school. The type of music that has done this for them is irrelevant. It's wrong to make assumptions based on other schemes that are nowhere near as ambitious.