Screw the Penguins, let's talk about vaginas

[Resurrection Man]

Would that be the same Europe that adopts a single currency and the same fiscal rules for utterly incompatible national economies, and then imposes unelected governments to oversee the required austerity? Or whose Human Rights conventions require the UK to host and maintain fundamentalists whose avowed intention is to destroy us? Or whose fishery policies have destroyed the UK industry whilst also resulting in tons of dead fish being regularly dumped in the sea? Or where only one nation is sufficiently in surplus to be able to dictate terms? Or where executive power resides in non-democratic bureaucracies whose accounts are inauditable?

Are the madness of America and and the madness of Europe the only two options? Forgive that I prefer not to choose.

You are absolutely spot on, Decantor.

[Roehre]

Spot on? I beg to differ:

Would that be the same Europe that adopts a single currency and the same fiscal rules for utterly incompatible national economies

Hm, some knowledge of the history of the American Dollar is not a superfluous commodity here, I'm afraid.

and then imposes unelected governments to oversee the required austerity?

Since when is a government backed by a fully democratically elected parlement "unelected"?

Or whose Human Rights conventions require the UK to host and maintain fundamentalists whose avowed intention is to destroy us?

See Pabmusic's post #8

Or whose fishery policies have destroyed the UK industry

Remarkable it hasn't done so with the equally affected Dutch or Scandinavian fishery industries, which however survived

whilst also resulting in tons of dead fish being regularly dumped in the sea?

Which is indeed a fallacy - which I shall not defend or deny

Or where only one nation is sufficiently in surplus to be able to dictate terms?

What happens in the US by California doing so to Arkansas....

Or where executive power resides in non-democratic bureaucracies....

Ever heard of elections for the European parlement?

whose accounts are inauditable?

these are auditable. But there are sections of which approval is denied because of deficiencies in the book keeping.Weren't there any auditing procedures, these wouldn't be shown to be happening, would they?
So: no cover up. Fingers are pointing to these deficiencies.

[handsomefortune]

if i might say so, very well navigated roehre .... especially your opening point! to an extent the whole globe is a 'poodle' to that - not just the uk, or its ex pm.

coincidentally, message one on this thread made me think of europe in terms of 'the body politic' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_politic

[James Wonnacott]

British folks, you are part of Europe, non?

No.

[MrGongGong]

No.

The problem with the Kipper folk is that they are unable to understand simple geography

(it's part of the delusional fantasy ...............)


How many of these smokies live in Cul-de-sac's ?

[scottycelt]

We could always blow up the Channel Tunnel and then forge a new trading alliance with Rockall ...

[Budapest]

total agreement from me... but Sunday's Greek election will be momentous, and after?
Who knows...

I must say though, I was disappointed in the dawdling of "Merkozy" and the Euro bloc generally about Greece and others. When decisiveness, strong leadership, was needed - they couldn't give it, or find it.

It's not just the English who muddle through in the "global village" economy...

Sorry, what was this post about again? The Vagina Monologues was it? Or Banalogues?
Lovely piece by Naomi McAuliffe - thanks Bud. Lady Bits, ladygarden, growler, red snapper... all get the thumbs up from me!

jayne lee wilson, yes, the Greek election tomorrow will be rather momentous, but only for the bankers (if Greece defaults and/or leaves the Eurozone it won't make much difference to the European Union). The 'economic crisis' is all about debt and how much interest is paid on that debt. In the case of Greece it's all about government debt. The Greek people, the ordinary plebs, have one of the lowest rates of personal debt in Europe (contrasted against the citizens of the USA and UK who have huge amounts of personal debt, some of the highest in the world, flogged to them by unregulated corrupt corporations who make huge amounts of money out of the interest on this debt). The Greek government, not the Greek people, borrowed large sums of money on the open markets at a certain interest rate. Wall Street rating agencies like Moodys, Fitch and Standard & Poor (all of which are totally corrupt and gave Lehman Brothers AAA rating shortly before Lehman Brothers collapsed and caused the start of this financial crisis in 2008) come along and downgrade the credit rating of countries like Greece. This means that the interest rates on money that countries like Greece borrows shoots up. And who earns all the money from those higher interest rates..? That's right, Wall Street.

Do you see how this works? and the vampires on Wall Street will try to move on Spain next, because they earn huge amounts of money out of human misery (Greece used to have one of the lowest suicide rates in Europe; it's now one of the highest)

If the Greek people have got any sense they'll give the finger to austerity (whilst the banksters are bailed out by tax payers money) and default on their debts. We'll have some indication of how things are going to pan out tomorrow.

[JohnSkelton]

jayne lee wilson, yes, the Greek election tomorrow will be rather momentous, but only for the bankers (if Greece defaults and/or leaves the Eurozone it won't make much difference to the European Union).

?

http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/11/07/EZ_BNKEXP0711_SB.html

[Budapest]

I agree with all of that apart from the 'socialist model' bit, though I suppose it depends what you mean by 'socialist'. The original set-up of the Common Market was very much a 'Centrist' model based on Catholic Social Teaching, particularly Rerum Novarum ... and, amusingly if not wholly inappropriately, some of the original CM opposition in the UK consisted of a very Protestant suspicion of any treaty that happened to have been signed in Rome!

Rerum Novarum continued to influence EU law at Maastricht, followed by Nice, according to Wiki:

'The subsidiarity principle which originated in Rerum novarum was established in European Union (EU) law by the Treaty of Maastricht,^{[citation needed]} signed on 7 February 1992 and entered into force on 1 November 1993. The present formulation is contained in Article 5 of the Treaty Establishing the European Community (consolidated version following the Treaty of Nice, which entered into force on 1 February 2003).'

'Christian Democracy, a political movement in numerous European countries, was significantly influenced by Catholic social teachings. They have influenced many other political movements in varying degrees throughout the world, including those in non-Catholic nations.'

Nowadays, the EU consists of governments of largely Centre-Right and Centre-Left persuasions, and, because of the politically moderate terms of membership, it is thankfully impossible for any extremist government from either the Right or Left to join the EU ... and long may that continue!

Of course, the EU can be called any rubbish one likes and indeed often is ... in the US it is considered by some, apparently seriously, to be 'Communist' ... and how many times have we heard from some on the Left in the UK, for example, that it is merely "a rich man's capitalist club, run solely by, and for, the banks".

scottycelt, when I describe Europe as being 'socialist' I'm comparing it to America. America no longer has any kind of left wing, which is why folks like me say that as a country it's gone down the tubes. Both Republicans and Democrats are right wing, and you really couldn't put a cigarette paper between their policies. There's no comparison to European politics (the UK aside), which has a wide spectrum of left and right political parties. Obama has just continued on with the policies of George Bush, and made those policies more extreme. Even Americans who voted for Ronald Regan back in the 80s would be totally astounded by what's going on in America under the Obama administration.

[JohnSkelton]

Budapest - if you look at http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/1...XP0711_SB.html you will see that French banks have the greatest exposure to Greek debt, followed by German banks, followed by UK banks, followed by US banks.

If you look at Spain you'll see that German banks have the greatest exposure, followed by France, then the UK, then US banks.

Obviously the system is interconnected, but how is austerity being imposed or enforced on Greece by 'Wall Street' against EU opposition? How is there some divide neo-liberal v EU or IMF v ECB? Why do you think the suicide rate in Greece is the fault of Wall Street and not the EU?

(Bracketing the question of whether it's anyone's 'fault'. Fairly obviously I think it's the fault of a system which clearly is designed to protect the interests of capital over people, with a non-cooperative outcome: the richest European nations intend to protect their banking sector as far as they can from exposure to debt / default from the rapidly failing poorer European states. If anyone here would like to make the argument that EU fiscal mechanisms are working for a common EU good, for the good of the various populations in the EU, then I'll read it with interest and gratitude ).

[Budapest]

?

http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/1...XP0711_SB.html

John, economics is Alice in Wonderland stuff. It all just amounts to human greed/stupidity, which in this instance (the world economic crisis and Greece, etc) just comes down to the cost of borrowing money. Here are some figures on what's owed by some countries ('tn' stands for trillions of euros):

UK
GDP: €1.7 tn - Foreign debt: €7.3 tn = €117,580 Foreign debt per person

FRANCE
GDP: €1.8 tn - Foreign debt: €4.2 tn = €66,508 Foreign debt per person

GERMANY
GDP: €2.4 tn - Foreign debt: €4.2 tn = €50,659 Foreign debt per person

US
GDP: €10.8 tn - Foreign debt: €10.9 tn = €35,156 Foreign debt per person

GREECE
GDP: €0.2 tn - Foreign debt: €0.4 tn = €38,073 Foreign debt per person

SPAIN
GDP: €0.7 tn - Foreign debt: €1.9 tn = €41,366 Foreign debt per person

Many other countries are shown in the source for these stats, which is from the BBC:

Eurozone debt web: Who owes what to whom?

Please note that these stats only show government and bank debt, and don't include the personal debt of each nation, which is another story. But even going on government/bank debt, on paper Greece is in better shape than the UK, France or Germany. The only reason we get a 'crisis' is because Wall Street rating agencies downgrade the credit rating of countries like Greece, which means that countries like Greece suddenly find that they have to pay two or three times more to borrow money. Just about all that extra interest goes to American bankers.

These loonies are even wrecking the American economy so that they can make money out of it.

[Budapest]

Budapest - if you look at http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/1...XP0711_SB.html you will see that French banks have the greatest exposure to Greek debt, followed by German banks, followed by UK banks, followed by US banks.

If you look at Spain you'll see that German banks have the greatest exposure, followed by France, then the UK, then US banks.

Obviously the system is interconnected, but how is austerity being imposed or enforced on Greece by 'Wall Street' against EU opposition? How is there some divide neo-liberal v EU or IMF v ECB? Why do you think the suicide rate in Greece is the fault of Wall Street and not the EU?

(Bracketing the question of whether it's anyone's 'fault'. Fairly obviously I think it's the fault of a system which clearly is designed to protect the interests of capital over people, with a non-cooperative outcome: the richest European nations intend to protect their banking sector as far as they can from exposure to debt / default from the rapidly failing poorer European states. If anyone here would like to make the argument that EU fiscal mechanisms are working for a common EU good, for the good of the various populations in the EU, then I'll read it with interest and gratitude ).

John, I replied to your previous post at the same time you made the above post.

The chart you link to shows debt risks to banks. It doesn't show how much money is owed to Wall Street bankers by various countries, or indeed the hugely increased suicide rate in countries like Greece.

Let me get this right, when it comes to austerity, the bank's/greed/stupidity have once again melted down the economic system, just like it did in the 1930s. Back then, the US Government introduced strict controls on the banking sector, with that all familiar cry: it'll never happen again! Starting with President Regan (Republican) in the 80s through to President Clinton (Democrat) in the 90s, all those checks and balances on the banking industry have been taken away; and we're now at the stage where banks and corporations own the American government.

The world economy has been completely wrecked by their greed and stupidity. The bankers get bailed out by corrupt governments (with tax payer's money) and the plebs are told that they must have 'austerity'.

Come the revolution, comrade.

[Budapest]

Budapest, your post seems to tell me that only you have reliable sources of information about Europe, and that anything else I may have heard is misinformation. You will understand, I'm sure, if I remain sceptical about that. I note that you make no attempt whatever to repudiate any of the damning points in my original post.

Why do you rest your case on Assange's predicament? I never suggested that UK's systems were perfect (habeas corpus etc): I hope Assange is extradited only if a British court is satisfied of the Swedish case against him. But the validity of the European project hardly rests on that one instance. It is an infinitesimal drop in an enormous ocean.

So you think Europe has the moral high ground in justice? Hardly a great prominence in our current world, and often in conflict with natural justice. The fact remains that the European project has dubious democratic foundations, is extremely expensive to maintain (all those enormous salaries and expenses for superannuated national politicians!), and delivers little of value to the UK in net terms. And, if the the Euro-block is so strong economically, why are its current problems sending shock-waves round the world? I barely recognise the scenario you describe. Europe is the sick man that China and USA are trying to nurse back to health; Germany says it can't afford the treatment.

Healthcare? Are you saying that I have no need of health insurance in the Euro block? Are you pretending that the NHS is not bleeding our country dry, such that we can no longer afford proper defence, policing, education? Why are inefficient, unavailable GPs being paid £100K? Please spare me the health argument. The ideal is wonderful, as thankfully is the fact quite often, but in general the implementation is deficient and too costly.

Democracy in UK does indeed limp; but, compared with Europe, it sprints. You originally called attention to the madness in USA (though I think the repercussions of the single word 'vagina' is a poor example), but you seem blind to comparable insanity in Europe. I urge you to take stock of the facts - just look at unemployment figures, or go to Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland.

decantor, I perfectly understand why many Brits (probably a majority) don't like the European Union. The danger, as I see it, is getting this mixed-up with an unholy alliance with America and what Europeans call 'Anglo-Saxon capitalism' (see the present world economic crisis as a good example of that). The reason the NHS is going down the tubes is precisely because of this sort of capitalism. By creeping degrees they are privatising the NHS, because 'the free market is more efficient', and of course it has nothing to do with greedy people running down the NHS and making lots of money out of it (once again, out of human suffering).

The much vaunted 'Obamacare' in the US is a similar joke. Americans pay more than four times for their healthcare than comparable western countries. Obamacare does absolutely nothing to address this: it's just big companies raking it in from human misery.

[Lateralthinking1]

Odd thread but interesting.

Every tin pot company places great emphasis on risk management. Even the British Government spends a lot of time on it, if not wholly effectively. Perhaps journalists could place the spotlight on this fundamental business procedure as it is undertaken by the governing authorities of the United States, the EU and member countries. As it is, we are told very little. It is inconceivable that if risk management were undertaken skilfully and transparently by governing bodies - the Lansley stance on the NHS reform risk register was exactly the wrong direction to take - voters would ever have permitted recent situations to arise so unchallenged.

I have considerable concern for the people of Greece. Currently though that is focussed on the external limiting of their democratic processes. In terms of the economics, dare I say that I am not wholly convinced. While I think it outrageous and completely unacceptable that the EU's current version of austerity should be imposed on them, I will be more moved by the rhetoric of catastrophe once Greece has the kinds of austerity measures that are present in Britain. Currently I am hearing a lot of hysterical fears about how their predicament might affect the rest of us but there aren't actually many hard facts about where they themselves might end up. If I were a Greek voter, I think I would vote to leave the EU completely and see what benefits over other Europeans, including many British people, could be maintained. It might well be that they will never speak to an American or a European again. But the world of trade is a big place - Russia, China, Argentina, Mongolia, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, India, South Africa.

Airports - 81, most in public ownership. Railways/roads - In public ownership. Refusal to pay road tolls - 14%. Energy - Publicly owned and is owed 300m Euros. Oil reserves - 10 million barrels. Untapped oil and gas reserves - Very likely/being explored. Military spending - Highest in Europe. Navy - Biggest in the world. Air Force - Currently Being Modernised/Expanded with US.

Percentage of homes owner-occupied - Over 80%. Pension age - Commonly 60 or under. Pension level - Often 95% of final salary. Number of jobless - 1 million (UK - 2.65m). Welfare state - Stronger than average. Average salary - $22317 (Germany - $23302). Average salary of a railway worker (including track workers and cleaners) - £60,000. Tax - Low to average. Tax evasion - High.

World economic ranking - 29th. Exports - World Top 5 for 7 commodities. Number of Millionaires - Estimated to be 60,000 (but 5,000 declare). Tourism in 2009 - 19.3m (Increase from 17.7m in 2008). Number 1 holiday destination of the Chinese. Industrial output - Highest percentage increase of all EU member states between 2005 and 2011. Investment in Balkans - High. Number of supporters at Euro 2012 - Significant. Eurovision Song Contest - Participated. Bid to Host the 2026 World Cup - Rumoured.

In the match between Russia and Greece today, the Russians were by far the stronger side on paper. As events unfolded, their performance was lacking in every respect and on going a goal down they became dirty. One might see an analogy there with the EU. It is stronger than any one country, its economic system is hopelessly lacking and now arguably its tactics are dirty too. The analogy doesn't stop there. In the 86th minute, the Greek Katsouranis blatantly feigned injury to waste time. The manner in which he was stretchered off was ludicrous. Within five seconds, he was immediately back on his feet. The Greeks won and, yes, I was pleased for them, given how shocking Russia turned out to be, but that was tempered by the drama we witnessed from the Greek player. If the Greek economy is as "traumatised" as their football star, there really isn't a need for anyone to lose a lot of sleep.

[JohnSkelton]

Credit rating agencies are an important issue, but it's incorrect to say that the Greek economy is in "better shape" than the economies of the UK, France or Germany. The fact that Greece's GDP is €0.2 tn against €1.8 tn, €2.4 tn etc. shows why you can't use those figures to make the case you want to make.

"The chart you link to shows debt risks to banks. It doesn't show how much money is owed to Wall Street bankers by various countries, or indeed the hugely increased suicide rate in countries like Greece."

Why would a chart on exposure to debt show suicide rates? It doesn't show how much money is owed to China by various countries, either; specifically, in the context of Greek 'bailouts', it's the exposure to Greek debt of French and German banks which is key. A proportion of that debt has been 'bought' by the IMF and the ECB, the result of which is that the 75% 'haircut' for privately held debt doesn't apply, thus again bailing out those banks. The Greek 'bailout' money hasn't gone to stregthen the Greek economy; it has gone to protect the strong or stronger economies of Northern Europe. Whether you like it or not there isn't a scintilla of difference between the EU and the US, between the ECB and the IMF, in terms of adherence to neoliberal economic theory. There are differences in social and so-called human rights policies (although neither has much relevance in a situation like the one in Greece, and there are strong moves within the EU to roll back gains on employment legislation. The UK isn't some lone US satellite on the latter, though UK so-called Euro-sceptics would no doubt continue to insist that the EU stifles so-called competition even if the EU legalised child labour ((which, of course, it won't ))).

I know what's happening with the NHS in the UK. I'm not offering an apologia for American and UK neoliberalism, which I think wrong in every possible way; I'm trying to point out that you are wrong to see the EU as some kind of 'socialist' bulwark against US neoliberalism.

http://permanentcrisis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/crisis-of-neoliberalism-in-europe-1.html

http://permanentcrisis.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/crisis-of-neoliberalism-in-europe-2.html

You are looking in the wrong place for something.