Screw the Penguins, let's talk about vaginas

[Guest]

Cue the Sid James chuckle; but seriously...

A Michigan politician was banned from a debate after saying 'vagina' in a discussion about women's health. Whatever next?

The point, of course, is just how incredibly looney America has become over the last thirty years or so. Note that I don't say since 9/11. I'm talking about the end of the Cold War in the early 90s, a generation ago.

America has always been a bit of a crazy place. In recent years it's gone over the edge. A Good example is the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) 2012, and the NDAA 2013 (which is still going through Congress), which amongst many other things still passes into law the indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, and paves the way for a war with Iran, which the British poodle will no doubt go along with.

British folks, you are part of Europe, non?

[Ferretfancy]

I've forgotten his name, but in America years ago there was a wag who formed The Society for Indecency to Naked Animals. Nobody noticed the words "for "and "to", so he got lots of TV publicity involving plans for putting knickers on cows, and so forth! People even sent donations !

[decantor]

British folks, you are part of Europe, non?

Would that be the same Europe that adopts a single currency and the same fiscal rules for utterly incompatible national economies, and then imposes unelected governments to oversee the required austerity? Or whose Human Rights conventions require the UK to host and maintain fundamentalists whose avowed intention is to destroy us? Or whose fishery policies have destroyed the UK industry whilst also resulting in tons of dead fish being regularly dumped in the sea? Or where only one nation is sufficiently in surplus to be able to dictate terms? Or where executive power resides in non-democratic bureaucracies whose accounts are inauditable?

Are the madness of America and and the madness of Europe the only two options? Forgive that I prefer not to choose.

[Budapest]

decantor, why do you think that the International Criminal Court (ICC) is based in Europe? It's because the European Union is first and foremost in the world when it comes to human rights, and, I may add, creation of wealth (the EU is still the most powerful economic bloc in the world, despite what the Mail or Daily Telegraph might tell you - if Greece leaves the Euro it's just money down the back of the sofa).

To contrast your views on this with mine, Julian Assange has been under house arrest in the UK now without trial for more than four hundred days. What's happened to habeas corpus? Whatever your views about Julian Assange, I hope that we can agree that arrest without charge is not good for democracy?

Most of the stuff they tell you about the EU is total propaganda. 'They' hate it because it's a socialist model and it's successful (repeat: the most powerful economic bloc on earth, which largely enables health care for all).

Assange has just lost his final appeal in the UK, which means that it will go to the European Court of Human Rights. The same court that allows islamic terrorists with 20 kids and 8 wives to live on the dole in the UK. No European court will allow extradition to a country that has the death penalty and routinely tortures prisoners (I'm talking about the USA here), so it will be interesting to see what happens in the Assange case.

The frightening thing is, if these allegations had been made against Assange in the UK, instead of Sweden, he'd probably already be in Gitmo. What does that say about the current state of democracy in the UK?

[jayne lee wilson]

decantor, why do you think that the International Criminal Court (ICC) is based in Europe? It's because the European Union is first and foremost in the world when it comes to human rights, and, I may add, creation of wealth (the EU is still the most powerful economic bloc in the world, despite what the Mail or Daily Telegraph might tell you - if Greece leaves the Euro it's just money down the back of the sofa).

To contrast your views on this with mine, Julian Assange has been under house arrest in the UK now without trial for more than four hundred days. What's happened to habeas corpus? Whatever your views about Julian Assange, I hope that we can agree that arrest without charge is not good for democracy?

Most of the stuff they tell you about the EU is total propaganda. 'They' hate it because it's a socialist model and it's successful (repeat: the most powerful economic bloc on earth, which largely enables health care for all).

Assange has just lost his final appeal in the UK, which means that it will go to the European Court of Human Rights. The same court that allows islamic terrorists with 20 kids and 8 wives to live on the dole in the UK. No European court will allow extradition to a country that has the death penalty and routinely tortures prisoners (I'm talking about the USA here), so it will be interesting to see what happens in the Assange case.

The frightening thing is, if these allegations had been made against Assange in the UK, instead of Sweden, he'd probably already be in Gitmo. What does that say about the current state of democracy in the UK?

Excellent post, Budapest, total agreement from me... but Sunday's Greek election will be momentous, and after?
Who knows...

I must say though, I was disappointed in the dawdling of "Merkozy" and the Euro bloc generally about Greece and others. When decisiveness, strong leadership, was needed - they couldn't give it, or find it.

It's not just the English who muddle through in the "global village" economy...

Sorry, what was this post about again? The Vagina Monologues was it? Or Banalogues?
Lovely piece by Naomi McAuliffe - thanks Bud. Lady Bits, ladygarden, growler, red snapper... all get the thumbs up from me!

[Budapest]

I've forgotten his name, but in America years ago there was a wag who formed The Society for Indecency to Naked Animals. Nobody noticed the words "for "and "to", so he got lots of TV publicity involving plans for putting knickers on cows, and so forth! People even sent donations !

I could have made a fortune making underwear for farm animals! but alas, I've always missed the chance, because I'm always too busy arguing about human politics.

Damn, I could have been rich.

[decantor]

Budapest, your post seems to tell me that only you have reliable sources of information about Europe, and that anything else I may have heard is misinformation. You will understand, I'm sure, if I remain sceptical about that. I note that you make no attempt whatever to repudiate any of the damning points in my original post.

Why do you rest your case on Assange's predicament? I never suggested that UK's systems were perfect (habeas corpus etc): I hope Assange is extradited only if a British court is satisfied of the Swedish case against him. But the validity of the European project hardly rests on that one instance. It is an infinitesimal drop in an enormous ocean.

So you think Europe has the moral high ground in justice? Hardly a great prominence in our current world, and often in conflict with natural justice. The fact remains that the European project has dubious democratic foundations, is extremely expensive to maintain (all those enormous salaries and expenses for superannuated national politicians!), and delivers little of value to the UK in net terms. And, if the the Euro-block is so strong economically, why are its current problems sending shock-waves round the world? I barely recognise the scenario you describe. Europe is the sick man that China and USA are trying to nurse back to health; Germany says it can't afford the treatment.

Healthcare? Are you saying that I have no need of health insurance in the Euro block? Are you pretending that the NHS is not bleeding our country dry, such that we can no longer afford proper defence, policing, education? Why are inefficient, unavailable GPs being paid £100K? Please spare me the health argument. The ideal is wonderful, as thankfully is the fact quite often, but in general the implementation is deficient and too costly.

Democracy in UK does indeed limp; but, compared with Europe, it sprints. You originally called attention to the madness in USA (though I think the repercussions of the single word 'vagina' is a poor example), but you seem blind to comparable insanity in Europe. I urge you to take stock of the facts - just look at unemployment figures, or go to Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Ireland.

[Pabmusic]

...Or whose Human Rights conventions require the UK to host and maintain fundamentalists whose avowed intention is to destroy us?

The European Convention on Human Rights does not require this, or anything like this. It does prohibit torture and, by extension, forced repatriation to a society where the person is likely to be tortured. And in any case, if you're alluding to Abu Hamza, the European Court of Human Rights has allowed his deportation.

And never forget that it was the UK that drafted the Convention in the first place, and got the Council of Europe to adopt it in 1950.

This post, from another thread, gives more detail, and has a link to the Convention: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...highlight=echr

[scottycelt]

Most of the stuff they tell you about the EU is total propaganda. 'They' hate it because it's a socialist model and it's successful (repeat: the most powerful economic bloc on earth, which largely enables health care for all)

I agree with all of that apart from the 'socialist model' bit, though I suppose it depends what you mean by 'socialist'. The original set-up of the Common Market was very much a 'Centrist' model based on Catholic Social Teaching, particularly Rerum Novarum ... and, amusingly if not wholly inappropriately, some of the original CM opposition in the UK consisted of a very Protestant suspicion of any treaty that happened to have been signed in Rome!

Rerum Novarum continued to influence EU law at Maastricht, followed by Nice, according to Wiki:

'The subsidiarity principle which originated in Rerum novarum was established in European Union (EU) law by the Treaty of Maastricht,^{[citation needed]} signed on 7 February 1992 and entered into force on 1 November 1993. The present formulation is contained in Article 5 of the Treaty Establishing the European Community (consolidated version following the Treaty of Nice, which entered into force on 1 February 2003).'

'Christian Democracy, a political movement in numerous European countries, was significantly influenced by Catholic social teachings. They have influenced many other political movements in varying degrees throughout the world, including those in non-Catholic nations.'

Nowadays, the EU consists of governments of largely Centre-Right and Centre-Left persuasions, and, because of the politically moderate terms of membership, it is thankfully impossible for any extremist government from either the Right or Left to join the EU ... and long may that continue!

Of course, the EU can be called any rubbish one likes and indeed often is ... in the US it is considered by some, apparently seriously, to be 'Communist' ... and how many times have we heard from some on the Left in the UK, for example, that it is merely "a rich man's capitalist club, run solely by, and for, the banks".

[rauschwerk]

I've forgotten his name, but in America years ago there was a wag who formed The Society for Indecency to Naked Animals. Nobody noticed the words "for "and "to", so he got lots of TV publicity involving plans for putting knickers on cows, and so forth! People even sent donations !

My recollection is that the whole thing was actually a spoof: seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society..._Naked_Animals .

[jean]

My recollection is that the whole thing was actually a spoof...

Of course it was a spoof!

Didn't you notice the words

...Nobody noticed the words "for "and "to"...

[JohnSkelton]

Excellent post, Budapest, total agreement from me... but Sunday's Greek election will be momentous, and after?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/greek-election-blog-2012/2012/jun/13/costas-lapavitsas-greece-eurozone-crisis?newsfeed=true

"In the most recent bailout, of course, the private sector has taken substantial losses - up to 75% NPV haircut on their holdings of Greek debt. But they had already sold a lot of it. Guess who they sold it to? The ECB and the IMF - neither of which took a haircut. So quite a bit of the bailout money has also gone to those institutions. But their purchases of that debt were also effectively a rescue of the banks that were overexposed to Greek debt.

So directly or indirectly, the main beneficiaries of Greek bailout money have been French and German banks. 'Aid' to Greece? Anything but. The Greeks can be justifiably angry that their economy has been wrecked in order to fool German taxpayers into believing that they were rescuing a profligate southern state when actually they were bailing out their own banks and protecting France."

http://coppolacomment.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/real-bailout.html

"apart from the 'socialist model' bit, though I suppose it depends what you mean by 'socialist'." (scottycelt #9). Indeed.

[JohnSkelton]

Cue the Sid James chuckle; but seriously...

A Michigan politician was banned from a debate after saying 'vagina' in a discussion about women's health. Whatever next?

The point, of course, is just how incredibly looney America has become over the last thirty years or so.

"A perfect illustration of this was made by Virginia state ...." Hmm.

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15538

[rauschwerk]

Of course it was a spoof!

Guilty as charged, m'lud. I plead in mitigation that I hadn't been up long and was not properly taking in what I read!

[Resurrection Man]

......which the British poodle will no doubt go along with.

You're a bit behind the times! Blair hasn't been PM for a long time.