"Universe of Sound" at The Science Museum

[Guest]

Unless I missed it (and a search of the forum yielded nowt) I'm surprised no-ones mentioned this little gem of an exhibition currently on at The Science Museum. The details below explain in far greater detail than I can but suffice to say I think it's a very interesting and informative exhibition and great to get the kids involved in classical music.

Of interest to me was to have a go at conducting as it always looked so easy and I reckon I'd make a brilliant Furtwangler...just need the orchestra. Oh, how wrong can one get? You stand on a couple of floor marks and then try to follow the tempo and beat shown on the screen using your right arm. An Xbox type gizmo then senses the position of your right arm and displays it on the screen overlaid over the actual conductors beat. There are three modes and the toughest gives polite coughs when you mess up and lose the beat.

The left arm is supposed to alter the volume but I never managed to get that bit to work and talking to one of the museum staff, she also agreed that that part was the weakest bit. What surprised me was how my right arm completely lost what it was trying to do as soon as I tried to get the lefthand to control the volume. Conducting...easy, it ain't. There is a fascinating panel that explains a little about what psychologists know/have found out about conductors and how their brains are wired.

The one thing that I found a bit strange and perhaps someone can give me an explanation is that the central display of the conductor seen facing the viewer seemed to be out of time with the music. It seemed just a fraction ahead...a little like lipsync being marginally out. Is that how it works? The orchestra is always fractionally behind the conductors beat?

Full details http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visi..._of_Sound.aspx

[MrGongGong]

The one thing that I found a bit strange and perhaps someone can give me an explanation is that the central display of the conductor seen facing the viewer seemed to be out of time with the music. It seemed just a fraction ahead...a little like lipsync being marginally out. Is that how it works? The orchestra is always fractionally behind the conductors beat?

yes

It's the Philharmonia they always play (like many English Orchestras) behind the beat unless you ask them not to.

[amateur51]

Many thanks for posting about this, Resurrection Man - it sounds fascinating. I shall definitely put it on my list of things to do soon

Just one thing made me clench a bit - they specify tasks with left & right hands - I'm a lefty - I wonder if that means I'll have to learn to be a righty for the day? Like most lefties, I've had to learn over the years to develop basic motor skills with the 'wrong' hand but it can be very disorientating.

But I know what you mean about splitting tasks between your hands - I guess some have an aptitude for it and the rest of us would just have to practice like mad.

I sometimes watch conductors and from their physical approach to their craft I wonder if some of them are natural lefties but have had to conform - a puzzle

In my experience some conductors like to operate well ahead of the orchestra, when I assume there's some mutual understanding about this; most appear to be in complete synch, and a few fortunately rare ones are behind the orchestra (no names, no pack drill! )

[amateur51]

I went to this exhibition today & can report that it is truly wonderful. The place was full of children from very junior tots upwards all having a whale of a time making serious efforts to conduct as described.

But it is definitely not just for tots or would-be Salonens. It's full of interesting stuff from professional musicans on-screen explaining what they like/admire about Holst's The Planets; what's difficult to play and why on their instruments; what technical 'tricks' they can use; who they watch in performance; what the conductor brings to a performance for them as performers; and even Salonen confessing that this was the first time he had conducted the piece having known of it as a child in Finland.

If I came away with only one thing it was a renewed admiration for Holst, for orchestral musicians in all their variety, and for the conductor who was clearly working very hard and intelligently - sorry Hornspieler & Ariosto

This is an imaginative and intelligent multi-media collaboration between a top-class orchestra and a top-class scientific museum in London in very good sound and film projection- it finishes very soon (08 July) and I'm going to see it again next week

[handsomefortune]

...........what happened with your right/left brain functioning co-ordination-wise amateur51?

[amateur51]

...........what happened with your right/left brain functioning co-ordination-wise amateur51?

Ah sorry handsomefortune - yes it was all a right-handed operation so I tried to do it right-handed but then I became even more of a mirroring windmill than I am when trying these moves left-handed.

The accompanying text spoke about brain science showing that conductors are 'wired differently' to the rest of us regarding ear/hand/eye co-ordination. But that left me wondering do such people choose to become conductors (and how do they find out about their aptitude in such a relatively rarefied activity?); or does the brain of someone who starts conducting re-wire itself with practice to facilitate what is required physically with what's need intellectually?

And of course the big question of how do conductors communicate their intentions to the players? Salonen has a very clear stick technique but Furtwangler didn't until you understood it , by working with him apparently. What about Stokowski, Rozhdestvensky, Termirkanov, Rattle's changing style,oh you could go on & on. A fascinating puzzle

[ardcarp]

But that left me wondering do such people choose to become conductors (and how do they find out about their aptitude in such a relatively rarefied activity?); or does the brain of someone who starts conducting re-wire itself with practice to facilitate what is required physically with what's need intellectually?

Funny thing conducting. Some musicians can quite naturally direct a choir (for instance) without any formal training. It just seems to come naturally. Other musicians, who are excellent in every other way find that it just does not come naturally. Of those who have a natural bent, some find it easy to learn the conventions of an orchestral beat, which is terribly important especially if working with (for instance) a scratch semi-pro orchestra. And then there are the difficult things such as conducting different types of pause, accompanied recit, accompanying concertos and especially opera. These need a bit of practice and a bit of hands-on experience...and different conductors have different ways of making their intentions clear. Top conductors working with top orchestras can become more eccentric and express their musical feelings and intentions in sometimes bizaarre ways. But that is a luxury for the higher echelons of music-making!

I'd suggest that one probably needs a certain sort of 'brain' to do conducting, and maybe a certain sort of personality. If you haven't got it you probably don't try in the first place.

[amateur51]

Funny thing conducting. Some musicians can quite naturally direct a choir (for instance) without any formal training. It just seems to come naturally. Other musicians, who are excellent in every other way find that it just does not come naturally. Of those who have a natural bent, some find it easy to learn the conventions of an orchestral beat, which is terribly important especially if working with (for instance) a scratch semi-pro orchestra. And then there are the difficult things such as conducting different types of pause, accompanied recit, accompanying concertos and especially opera. These need a bit of practice and a bit of hands-on experience...and different conductors have different ways of making their intentions clear. Top conductors working with top orchestras can become more eccentric and express their musical feelings and intentions in sometimes bizaarre ways. But that is a luxury for the higher echelons of music-making!

I'd suggest that one probably needs a certain sort of 'brain' to do conducting, and maybe a certain sort of personality. If you haven't got it you probably don't try in the first place.

Interesting thoughts, thanks ardcarp

[MrGongGong]

Funny thing conducting.

indeed it is
my experience has been rather odd
I've only really conducted three "classical" orchestras from a score (lots of devised groups and strange other combinations though .........) the Philharmonia being one of them. What struck me was that the sense of ensemble was intrinsic to the musicians and not something that I had to generate, also they had the good sense to ignore my vagueness unlike many youth and amateur groups I've experienced. One can stand in front like a dancing goon (not mentioning any KD TV appearances of course ) and they will just get on with it BUT to do great things requires a whole other level of musicality and perception of the totality of the music.

[ardcarp]

What struck me was that the sense of ensemble was intrinsic to the musicians and not something that I had to generate

Very true McGG. They can very often just get on with it without too much intervention. This often applies when doing classical concertos (piano, violin, clarinet or whatever) where too much intervention by a conductor can spoil the rapport between soloist and orchestra. BUT many orchestral players are naturally programmed by immersion in the classical and romantic repertoire, and one has to be quite tough and sometimes unpopular to get them out of a rut. One has to remember that many orchestral players are fine all-round musicians too, some probably able conductors, and have wide experience that should not be underestimated by podium persons.

[MrGongGong]

Very true McGG. They can very often just get on with it without too much intervention. This often applies when doing classical concertos (piano, violin, clarinet or whatever) where too much intervention by a conductor can spoil the rapport between soloist and orchestra. BUT many orchestral players are naturally programmed by immersion in the classical and romantic repertoire, and one has to be quite tough and sometimes unpopular to get them out of a rut. One has to remember that many orchestral players are fine all-round musicians too, some probably able conductors, and have wide experience that should not be underestimated by podium persons.

tell me about it

I'm just finishing an orchestral piece that will be played with the customary 3 hour rehearsal
so having to write out sections that are intended to slowly drift out of synch and then come together (I was tempted to make a page that looked like some of Xenakis's more complex pieces in the hope that I would get more time but I think they would suggest that we cut that bit !)
so what is often a very simple musical result looks like a Fernyhough score ........... there's a whole psychology of making things look like the familiar
(the score of Atmospheres being a good example)

[amateur51]

Have you seen this exhibition, Mr GG?

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/galleries/oramics.aspx

[ardcarp]

I'm just finishing an orchestral piece that will be played with the customary 3 hour rehearsal
so having to write out sections that are intended to slowly drift out of synch and then come together

Good luck with it McGG. Good to know someone's at the cutting edge

[MrGongGong]

Have you seen this exhibition, Mr GG?

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visi...s/oramics.aspx

Oh yes and also before it was there
Daphne was a total genius and sadly neglected imv

[handsomefortune]

along with delia too.