German orchestral merger

[Ariosto]

As Gielen points out: You can't "merge" two orchestras. In so doing, you would destroy the character, culture and tradition of both of them. Baden Baden and Freiburg (as the smaller centres) presumably fear that it is the Stuttgart orchestra that would in essence survive.

Yes, I agree that would be a great pity as the best orchestra with Gielen should be the one to survive. Stuttgart used to be a fine band, but unfortunately they have been decimated by the events of the last few years. It can take ten years to build a good orchestra and only a couple in the wrong hands to destroy it.

[JohnSkelton]

Yes, I agree that would be a great pity as the best orchestra with Gielen should be the one to survive. Stuttgart used to be a fine band, but unfortunately they have been decimated by the events of the last few years. It can take ten years to build a good orchestra and only a couple in the wrong hands to destroy it.

None of which is of the slightest relevance, since the rationale isn't to do with a judgement about artistic quality or the supposed effects of the last few years on the Stuttgart orchestra but is one of cost. If you want to start a thread about Stuttgart, Norrington, and orchestral destruction I'm sure it would generate a fascinating conversation .

(Incidentally: when Gielen was principal guest conductor of the BBCSO he was deeply unpopular with many of the players, who made up all sorts of amusing nicknames for him. He was a fine conductor back then [IMO] - late 70s / early 80s; but he wanted to do things in ways they didn't, and they weren't sympathetic to many of his musical sympathies. The situation with the Baden-Baden orchestra and others Gielen has conducted has been very different. So it's perhaps worth suggesting that occasionally certain judgements about conductors need to be looked at in context and with a degree of detachment).

[Ariosto]

None of which is of the slightest relevance, since the rationale isn't to do with a judgement about artistic quality or the supposed effects of the last few years on the Stuttgart orchestra but is one of cost. If you want to start a thread about Stuttgart, Norrington, and orchestral destruction I'm sure it would generate a fascinating conversation .

(Incidentally: when Gielen was principal guest conductor of the BBCSO he was deeply unpopular with many of the players, who made up all sorts of amusing nicknames for him. He was a fine conductor back then [IMO] - late 70s / early 80s; but he wanted to do things in ways they didn't, and they weren't sympathetic to many of his musical sympathies. The situation with the Baden-Baden orchestra and others Gielen has conducted has been very different. So it's perhaps worth suggesting that occasionally certain judgements about conductors need to be looked at in context and with a degree of detachment).

No, I don't want to start a thread about Norrington as its been done to death ad nausium.

So you are saying that BRITISH orchestral players have no idea as to what may make a good conductor?

[bluestateprommer]

The vote went through, pushed by SWR Intendant Peter Boudgoust, to push along a merger of these two German radio orchestras down the line. For those with a command of German, the subtleties reported in these articles will be more easily deciphered:

http://www.derwesten.de/nachrichten/...id6822834.html (a more general article from one particular news agency, shared by several German media outlets)

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/in...e044bbc76.html (a more particular local analysis from Götz Thieme of the Stuttgarter-Zeitung)

[aeolium]

That's very sad news & I've signed the petition.

It seems from the reports that each orchestra is being required to make savings of €2.5 million a year and that SW Rundfunk itself has to make savings of €166 million by 2020. I don't really know how the funding operates, i.e. whether it is on a licence fee system or whether the German state government is involved. But surely every other alternative, e.g. sharing performance/rehearsal locations, should be explored first, and the solution proposed of merging orchestras is the worst of both worlds as it alters the distinctive character of both orchestras, as JS has said.

Wasn't there a similar funding crisis in Berlin with the Deutsche Oper and the Komische Oper recently?

[gurnemanz]

The nearest thing Germany has to the BBC is ARD which was set up after the War as an umbrella association for regional radio stations parallel to the Federal system of government. As I understand it, German broadcasting was deliberately decentralised by the Allied occupiers to hinder any nationalist tendencies in post-Nazi Germany. Since this is now irrelevant and all the regional broadcasters such as SWR are now easily available nationally and internationally via new digital media, it would seem to me that in future the number crunchers are bound to be looking at similar measures to this orchestral fusion as an obvious way of trimming budgets.

[jayne lee wilson]

It perhaps should not come as as shock that the Radio-Sinfonie-Orchester Stuttgart might be under threat as its has been reduced to nothing more than a school orchestra after the treatment it got from that Norrington idiot. It needs a few years to get good players in under a good musical conductor, now that RN has left.

Come now Ariosto, aren't radio orchestras usually the most adaptable and technically flexible of these many-headed beasts? If they really did dislike, and were thus technically disturbed, by Norrington so much - which from some their recordings together I rather doubt - wouldn't they respond to a welcome guest or change of principal by feeling let out of school, and play out of their skins as a result? This happens with emergency stand-ins occasionally.

Petition signed - so many hours of happy listening to these and other German Radio orchestras... remember those EBU concerts in the R3 past? With pithy intros by Hans Keller!

A favourite set of mine is the Complete Schubert Symphonies with Hans Zender and the SWR B-B & F. In my top three every time for that repertoire. What a shame if it becomes a memorial. Likewise Sanderling's Stuttgart Bruckner 7, and how many Gielen recordings we have on our shelves, of Bartok, Bruckner, Mahler... Feldman's Coptic Light (c/w...Bruckner 8!)

Anyone else have the CPO 17-disc set of Zender's Radio recordings with the Saarbrucken RSO? Repertoire ranging from Beethoven and Mozart to Debussy, Mahler, Schoenberg, Messiaen, Feldman and Zender himself, a German Radio classic.

How I hated the pusillanimous renaming of the Berlin Radio SO as the Deutsches Sinfonie-Orchester Berlin... I think Ashkenazy said he wanted listeners to think of them as more than "just" a radio orchestra...

[gurnemanz]

Mr Lebrecht has reported that this saga has ended as expected.
Full German report here "Baden loses out".

[Roehre]

Mr Lebrecht has reported that this saga has ended as expected.
Full German report here "Baden loses out".

Wirklich ein Skandal grösster Ordnung.... Schade.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Full German report here "Baden loses out".

I don't suppose someone could translate? I would be interested, but my German skills are extremely limited. I' m much better with French, and reasonable with Italian and American.

[Bryn]

I don't suppose someone could translate? I would be interested, but my German skills are extremely limited. I' m much better with French, and reasonable with Italian and American.

Simply open it in Chrome and use their translation facility. If you don't already have Chrome as an optional browser, do get it. I mainly use Firefox but Chrome certainly has its uses.

The main point is that the combined orchestra will be based in Stuttgart, (though with too much vibrato, unfortunately).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Simply open it in Chrome and use their translation facility. If you don't already have Chrome as an optional browser, do get it. I mainly use Firefox but Chrome certainly has its uses.

The main point is that the combined orchestra will be based in Stuttgart, (though with too much vibrato, unfortunately).

Ah! thank you.

[Hornspieler]

None of which is of the slightest relevance, since the rationale isn't to do with a judgement about artistic quality or the supposed effects of the last few years on the Stuttgart orchestra but is one of cost. If you want to start a thread about Stuttgart, Norrington, and orchestral destruction I'm sure it would generate a fascinating conversation .

(Incidentally: when Gielen was principal guest conductor of the BBCSO he was deeply unpopular with many of the players, who made up all sorts of amusing nicknames for him. He was a fine conductor back then [IMO] - late 70s / early 80s; but he wanted to do things in ways they didn't, and they weren't sympathetic to many of his musical sympathies. The situation with the Baden-Baden orchestra and others Gielen has conducted has been very different. So it's perhaps worth suggesting that occasionally certain judgements about conductors need to be looked at in context and with a degree of detachment).

How come that "guests" are now permitted to post with the same freedom as full members - even one suggesting to the other to start a new thread?

Either you're in, or you're out. In the case of one of these guests, "out and stay out" is long overdue in my opinion, for the amount of abuse that he has posted against fellow members and artists who have gained the respect and admiration of the public.

I am all in favour of reasonable debate but this particular problem is world wide - it will happen with Opera companies, Theatre companies and even Art Galleries and Museums in the coming years, and signing petitions will have no effect. It's about money. The whole of Europe is in recession and must save what it can for as many employees as possible. All the petitions in the world will not alter the grim realities of the situation. Try signing a few cheques.

HS

[Curalach]

HS, my understanding is that when members leave the forum any existing posts remain but are re-classified as "guest" rather than "full member". I don't think that guests can post as you suggest and the posts in question are not recent.
C

[Bryn]

Was JS not a full member back in June when the messages were posted?

[A bit of cross-posting there.]