What qualifies someone to be called a classical composer?

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  • Lateralthinking1

    Quote from frenchfrank: What is youth? Well, 45 in the sense you refer to it is very underdone. Ex teddy boys are in their 70s. Some of the late 60-something couples living in Ventnor saw Hendrix at the Isle of Wight Festival. They seem little different from my pre-rock n roll era parents fifteen years ago except they have matching cagouls. Those who have grandchildren might be familiar with their interests in techno or drum n bass. Meanwhile the last 10 songs played on Isle of Wight Radio today were:

    The O'Jays – Backstabbers
    Don Henley – The End Of The Innocence
    Maroon 5 – Payphone
    Deniece Williams – Let's Hear It For The Boy
    Kings of Leon – Sex On Fire
    The Who – Substitute
    Amy Macdonald – Slow It Down
    Ten Sharp – You
    Jackie Wilson – Higher and Higher
    Sinéad O'Connor – Nothing Compares 2 U

    None of these reach those of my parents' ages (early 80s). Arguably two might appeal to any remaining, ongoing, fans of forty year old festival music (50s-70s). Possibly two others are from that sort of era. I'm nearly 50. I don't think one was released in my teenage years. I have friends who wouldn't like any of them and they aren't for the classics. Two or three might be meaningful to people in their 30s and 40s. There's a couple in there for some youngsters but they are not at all cutting edge.

    It is family entertainment apparently. But I think we might ask how it is that teenagers of any era are frequently attuned to genre and then lose it, if indeed that is what happens. Who knows what these radio listeners might have in their record collections. It could be something very different. Clearly the clan mentality dissipates with work, mortgage, children and pets. Music might become more of a background interest. But what the market provides for the consumer is hardly an incentive for either listener or industry to develop in their interests. And that could be, contrary to general perception, the reverse of the natural human way.
    Last edited by Guest; 04-06-12, 15:30.

    Comment

    • MrGongGong
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 18357

      Originally posted by amateur51 View Post
      Fairly recently I was at an orchestral concert at the Royal Festival Hall where there was a significant party of 'ordinary' 16-18 year-olds sitting behind me in the cheap seats.

      Being the age I am, I worried about their being noisy & disruptive but all I heard were noises & positive comments of appreciation, particularly after The Rite of Spring "Man I never knew it was so LOUD!" sorta thing

      At the end I turned round for a chat & discovered that they'd really enjoyed it and that they'd come again


      and if you had asked them before (or after for that matter) what they thought of "Classical" music I would bet one of the things that they would have said was that it was "boring"......

      Comment

      • Ian
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 358

        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post


        ... oh for a courageous Producer with vision instead of image!
        I suspect there are plenty of those. It's the 'grown ups' what is the problem.

        Having said that, it is a thankless task bringing classical music to the screen. Even the people who are really interested can be viciously critical very often about quite superficial elements.

        Comment

        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 37394

          Originally posted by Lateralthinking1 View Post
          But what the market provides for the consumer is hardly an incentive for either listener or industry to develop interests. And that could be, contrary to general perception, the reverse of the natural human way.
          Never a truer word was spoke - imo. The concert music repertoire has yet to lead record producers to require top notch symphony orchestras to add backbeats to Bolero, and they probably don't need to: there's a certain repertory that in terms of advanced idioms needn't go further than, say, Debussy's Iberia, to ensure sales of some probably now dwindling kind. (They might stick Chabrier's Espana and Ravel's Rhapsidie Espagnole onto a CD to make up the 70 minutes). But the number of times I've come across stories of young rock musicians, but particularly jazz musicians, who at some stage were told by the majors, "Give us another five "X"s and we'll give you a 5 year retainer" Nowadays kids probably download more than buy CDs, and jazz musicians go to or set up their own labels; but the commercial consciousness-driven way of thinking from an earlier era increasingly informs the kind of BBC thinking that has wrecked the ethos of Radio 3's morning scheduling and manner of presentation. Having people like Mr Gong-Gong in the education system is a godsend as far as he can go... but how much of a counterweight to the ingraining of an ignorant reductionism can he provide?

          Comment

          • Ian
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 358

            Originally posted by Ian View Post
            http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_...n+roll&x=0&y=0

            I don't believe it: I've just been asked, completely out of the blue, whether I fancy going to jive classes!!
            Wrong again, it's not jive classes - apparently that stuff died out decades ago. It's Gavotte lessons.

            Comment

            • french frank
              Administrator/Moderator
              • Feb 2007
              • 29957

              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
              You've misunderstood my previous post, big time, frenchie - and, if I'm right, what the "problem" with getting these Musics known and loved is. I suspect that "they" don't understand what the grouping under "classical" Music is. There are merely prejudices and preconceptions (except in the already "converted") because the term "classical Music" is so nebulous.
              Hang on a tick - the 'linguistically deprived' people to whom I referred were the 'already "converted" '. I meant people who 'understand' the term in a general way, where Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are at the core but there's plenty more besides, backwards and forwards; and who aren't bothered about precisely what's in and out of the definition. Yer baroque, yer classical, yer Romantic, and probably modern stuff. The equivalent of the 'jazz fan'.

              My idea is that, once the general audience who've seen programmes on Minton pottery/William Morris/Shakespeare/Charles Rene MacIntosh, and who have no problem differentiating the cultural "movements" behind this work, get the idea that Classical/Late Romantic/Renaissance/Neo-Classicism/Serial Music is as rich as those art forms, then will there be real enthusiasm for the repertoire.
              Sure - I agree: it's an intelligent approach. (And to be fair, the Symphony programmes were at least a nod in that direction, though not the most imaginative).
              To say to somebody, "You've managed to grasp the concept of the Post-Impressionists, Surrealists, and Art Noveau, but you can't possibly cope with equivalent movements in Music, so just call it 'classical Music' and we'll know what you mean" is, I would suggest, the sort of patronizing attitude that makes potentially interested people so hostile to the whole idea of the Musics.
              Is that the message people get?

              Example - please don't complain I have some of the labels wrong - I'm sure I have!!! ) But it's just an illustrative schema:

              Western Music

              'Classical music' > Baroque > Vivaldi/Handel/Scarlatti

              'Popular music' > (prog) rock > Beefheart, Emerson, Wakeman

              'Jazz' > swing > Goodman, Miller, Ellington

              'Folk' > traditional/ 'roots' > Lloyd, Tawney, Watersons


              I can't see that 'classical music' is any more an umbrella term than 'popular music', 'jazz', or 'folk: they can be divided and subdivided (especially popular which - to me - is a general term based on the size of potential audiences).

              You can draw up other models:

              Visual arts > painting > Romantic > Delacroix, Turner, CD Friedrich

              Literary arts

              Drama > Renaissance > Shakespeare

              I agree with your view about how programmes about music could be presented, but the more important matter is the context in which it's performed: what kind of music is included in a concert (and here you see something akin to what you're saying: the OAE plays a particular kind of music, and I don't think it is simply called 'classical-music-full-stop').

              [In fact, one of the things I most dislike about R3's CD sequence/playlist programmes is the jumble of all sorts from medieval to 20th century, 5 mins-15mins long, all under the banner of 'classical music. But this is my personal view - I don't force it on others .]
              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                Interesting stuff Frenchie

                now on a personal level
                I'm currently writing a large scale orchestral piece for an orchestra who are well known for playing "Classical" music
                so does that make me a "Classical" composer ?

                but

                part of it's composition is using a version of the Upic software that Xenakis developed to convert images into sound , so does that make it "algorithmic" ? and if the piece is like that am I an "algorithmic" composer ?

                and

                I'm also making a piece at the moment that is entirely composed from sampled fragments of voices in many languages ....... does that make me an "electroacoustic" composer ?

                and

                when I wake up in the morning , I have been making sourdough bread , does that make me a baker ? or a confused musician ?

                as you were

                Comment

                • Ian
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 358

                  Originally posted by french frank View Post

                  I can't see that 'classical music' is any more an umbrella term than 'popular music', 'jazz', or 'folk: they can be divided and subdivided (especially popular which - to me - is a general term based on the size of potential audiences).
                  All labels have an umbrella function. wwww.western music/Classical/Romantic/nationalist/Russian/Orchestral/Tone poems/Tchaikovsky/Romeo and Juliette

                  But I don't think that 'popular music' is used within popular music. It's just music isn't it? And basically that's what we're up against.

                  Comment

                  • MrGongGong
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 18357

                    Originally posted by Ian View Post
                    But I don't think that 'popular music' is used within popular music. It's just music isn't it? And basically that's what we're up against.
                    It's not really "against" though is it ?
                    have a look at all the other things folk listen to AS WELL AS ............

                    Comment

                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 37394

                      French Frank

                      If by your imaginary schema, your >s presume some sort of interlinked association - and maybe I've read you wrong - I think that this is a problem that has been around in broadcasting "classical music" than what currently bedevils R3 presentation and scheduling.

                      Fifty years ago you could mention for example jazz as a peronal interest, and get a response such as "Oh you mean Acker Bilk?". If you then mentioned say Miles Davis, and went on to play some, the listener might then say, "Oh, is that jazz?" The problem is that today's recipient might still posit Acker Bilk as exemplifying what the term jazz signifies!

                      Imv that perception is a reflection of the paucity of definition accorded by broadcasters, in general, but specifically for purposes of this forum, Radio 3, to different areas of music - be they within "the Western concert music tradition", "the jazz tradition" or wherever.

                      I am increasingly tending towards Ferneyhoughgeliebte's views on this - his Msg 150 came like a great load off my shoulders this morning.

                      Comment

                      • Ian
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 358

                        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                        It's not really "against" though is it ?
                        have a look at all the other things folk listen to AS WELL AS ............

                        http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...u-listening-to
                        Been there and managed to bring that well known prog-rocker John Adams to the table.

                        BUT: It's not the music we're against it's the perception that classical music lies outside 'music' (i.e the term most people use to refer exclusively to pop music)

                        But what should 'classical' expect if the (unintentional effect) is to position itself outside 'music' (again in the sense that most people use the term to refer exclusively to pop music)

                        Comment

                        • Ian
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 358

                          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                          Interesting stuff Frenchie

                          now on a personal level
                          I'm currently writing a large scale orchestral piece for an orchestra who are well known for playing "Classical" music
                          so does that make me a "Classical" composer ?

                          but

                          part of it's composition is using a version of the Upic software that Xenakis developed to convert images into sound , so does that make it "algorithmic" ? and if the piece is like that am I an "algorithmic" composer ?

                          and

                          I'm also making a piece at the moment that is entirely composed from sampled fragments of voices in many languages ....... does that make me an "electroacoustic" composer ?

                          and

                          when I wake up in the morning , I have been making sourdough bread , does that make me a baker ? or a confused musician ?

                          as you were
                          No it's impressive. and no doubt all done between writing a school song for the local primary school, a hit dance anthem for a pal's teenage daughter, and a radio jingle for the local used car sales room.

                          Comment

                          • MrGongGong
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 18357

                            I find it much more productive to think about these things with much more extreme examples of musics
                            most people have narrow definitions of what music is or isn't (and that's as much true of so called "classical" enthusiasts as anyone else)
                            so if this

                            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                            is outside "music"

                            then this

                            Eugen Jochum conducts the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in Anton Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 Movement 1 1/2


                            seems not too far away from
                            this

                            Reeps One takes on Hobbit in the final battle of the 2010 Vauxhall UK Beatbox Championships Grand Final.Reeps One wins to take take the title for the second ...



                            Comment

                            • Ian
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 358

                              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                              I find it much more productive to think about these things with much more extreme examples of musics
                              most people have narrow definitions of what music is or isn't (and that's as much true of so called "classical" enthusiasts as anyone else)
                              so if this

                              Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                              is outside "music"

                              then this

                              Eugen Jochum conducts the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra in Anton Bruckner's Symphony No. 7 Movement 1 1/2


                              seems not too far away from
                              this

                              Reeps One takes on Hobbit in the final battle of the 2010 Vauxhall UK Beatbox Championships Grand Final.Reeps One wins to take take the title for the second ...



                              What. That's extreme?

                              One good thing about youtube is that it is really easy to play all three things together:


                              Now we're getting somewhere.

                              Comment

                              • MrGongGong
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 18357

                                Originally posted by Ian View Post
                                What. That's extreme?
                                .

                                Ok so if Merzbow is a bit middle of the road for you
                                how about some Gorgoroth ?

                                (not for the squeamish !!!)

                                Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

                                Comment

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